“Another misplaced claim made during the debate is the legislation represents a bailout for developers. This is just not so. Let us be clear. NAMA is not designed to be, and will not be permitted to operate, in practice as a bailout mechanism for developers who have operated irresponsibly. The amount a borrower owes will not change because of the transfer of a loan from his bank to NAMA. The agency will have a statutory duty to maximise the taxpayer’s return and will, therefore, be expected to use its entire means to this end. The Bill also provides the agency with the wide range of powers it needs to pursue borrowers and enforce security. In some cases, this will mean borrowers’ personal assets will have to be assumed by NAMA and, in such circumstances, I cannot understand how the misconception that the agency will bail out developers continues to run other than pure political mischief making” Former Minister for Finance, the late Brian Lenihan during the second stage debate on the NAMA Bill on 14th October, 2009
Last week, the Minister for Finance Michael Noonan told Sinn Fein’s finance spokesperson Pearse Doherty that “debt forgiveness has not formed part of these agreements” – the “these agreements” meaning the agreements NAMA was reaching with its developers for the repayments of loans.
But a week is a long time in politics.
This week, Minister Noonan is saying that NAMA will release developers from “personal guarantees or personal recourse” which to many people will sound a lot like “debt forgiveness”!
Minister Noonan was responding to questions in the Dail yesterday from the Fianna Fail finance spokesperson Michael McGrath and from Pearse Doherty. The full exchange is as follows:
“Deputy Michael McGrath: To ask the Minister for Finance if the National Asset Management Agency has agreed deals with debtors which involve a reduction or dilution in any form of any personal guarantee the debtors may have given in respect of their loans now held by NAMA; if he will provide details of the number and nature of such deals; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Deputy Pearse Doherty: To ask the Minister for Finance further to Parliamentary Question No. 226 of 12 June 2012 wherein he said that debt forgiveness has not formed part of agreements entered into by the National Asset Management Agency with debtors, if he will confirm if NAMA has entered into agreements where personal financial commitments and obligations by debtors have been reduced or waived as part of any agreement.
Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan: I am advised by NAMA that it did not pay any consideration to participating institutions for personal guarantees attached to acquired loans. This is because it did not consider that such guarantees had any residual value in the vast majority of cases as the amounts potentially recoverable were limited to the value of secured assets.
The policy of the NAMA Board from the outset has been to pursue all personal guarantees to the greatest extent feasible where there is value to be obtained. I am advised by NAMA that, with respect to co-operative debtors who have made full disclosure of assets and liabilities, it may, on a case-by-case basis, consider the release of personal guarantees or personal recourse two years after the value of all assets have been realised. I am also advised that the NAMA Board has recently decided that it will review this issue again in the light of any revised personal insolvency regime that may be introduced following enactment of legislation by the Oireachtas.”
What you are getting above is a reluctant response that has to be draaaaagged out of the Minister, and his response last week may seem to some to be downright misleading. He may well now couch his response in conditionality – NAMA “may” and “consider” and “case by case” – but the bottom line is that NAMA is writing off personal guarantees and personal recourse. NAMA may not have paid anything for these personal guarantees but you and I certainly have with the €42bn losses notched up by the banks when they transferred €74bn worth of loans to NAMA and only received €32bn in return.
What does this mean for NAMA? Not a great deal, it makes commercial sense for the Agency to maximise returns from its loans and if it forms the view that incentivisation – be it profit shares or forgiving personal guarantees or recourse – of specific developers will lead to such a maximisation, then that is in line with the Agency’s remit.
Politically this is dynamite of course. Remember former Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan and his solemn commitment that developers would not be allowed walk away from their debts? Citizens that have borrowed to buy homes may feel they are being unfairly treated by not being given the same deal as developers – the deal being that they work as best they can with their borrower for a couple of years, then walk away from their mortgage keeping their personal assets.
Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence Alan Shatter has another eight days to publish his Personal Insolvency Bill. Yesterday’s revelations have just upped the ante for him to deliver a system which will be regarded as equitable and fair for the debt-burdened in this country.
NAMA Wine Lake 
Hardly a surprise. I can point (again) to my note from 2009. http://goo.gl/rIFhZ
Besides, it may indeed make strictly commercial sense on any individual loan. Then it’s hardly unexpected that – in Ireland – there would be a special deal for those who are well known and well connected.
Political dynamite? Probably not for long. Much of the electorate will just shrug, grouse, and forget it.
About a month ago, it was reported that Angela Merkel wanted the Greek election which was held two weeks ago to have included a separate vote on whether Greeks wanted to remain in the euro. The message was clear, and by combining both votes, it would have made abundantly clear to Greeks what (little) choices they had. As it happened, the idea of a vote on the euro was not pursued.
But in Ireland where this week, we have confirmation that NAMA is forgiving personal guarantees and personal recourse and next week, we have the long-awaited Personal Insolvency Bill, we are set to have a message just as stark as the one reportedly orchestrated by Angela. Here’s what lenders are offering NAMA developers and with the Personal Insolvency Bill, here’s what lenders are offering “ordinary borrowers”
That’s why it is dynamite.
What’s actually really insane about it seems to be “the plan”, Which is to release the developers from their debts – somehow allowing the developers to raise cash with some bank (could even be NAMA backed), and then sell the “assets” back to them at a discount. The only aim it seems is to get some fairyland speculative bubble going again. I’ve seen developers companies doing refurb work on dilapidated office blocks around the place (I assume this is just NAMA money for the boys). There are no tenants – it’s just builders building. The put up signs says the building has been let, or sold, months later or more than a year later there are no tenants. “The plan” seems to be to get the developers building and selling to each other unwanted office buildings. Even if the plan were to work, it will just have us back in a crisis in a short few years.
[…] […]
@NWL
I heard a commentator on one of the business channels suggest very recently that in fact the the European ‘leaders’ in its widest context are simply making it up as they go along. This to me this is absolutely the case. If one pays attention to what Merkel has said on these matters two years ago and then one year ago and now today nobody should be in any doubt that the market is firmly in control and is dictating where this crisis will eventually end up, not Merkel or Legarde etc.
The debt situation as described above is simply a subset of that situation. Market realities are dictating that personal guarantees are simply not worth the paper they were ever written on and the Govt for once is getting real. By pretending what Brian Lenihan stated had any chance of ever being true was Alice In Wonderland economics.
I’ve stated here and elsewhere many times – this crisis is fundamentally centred around a property valuation error of monumental proportions. Nothing more nothing less. Until those ‘leaders’ in control recognise that basic, simple and indisputable fact we struggle on. Banks price property, they virtually always have and will likely continue to do so. The valuation error rests with the banks. Nobody else. Given that its the banks error they will eventually have to bear that loss. Old guff about recourse loans etc is fine and dandy in normalised times but when the banks own business models rendered their own security worthless going back to the consumer for a dig out is a waste of time.
The banks will write off these crazy mortgages because the penny is finally beginning to drop that economic growth will remain absent until they do. Ultimately banks are slaves to the economic cycle and they need to give it some chance to bloom again.
This just makes my blood boil.
It merely adds another insult to injury. From inception it was clear that NAMA was not the solution to the banking problem. Ireland is now faced with conflating banking/property problems in the form of still-moribund Irish banks and a loss making state owned property company called NAMA.
Folks would be hard pressed to come up with a worse solution to the Irish banking/property problem than the creation and operation of NAMA.
It is the politicians in the last administration and in this current administration who have asked the taxpayer to settle the bill for this entire mess.
We really do deserve better.
@JMC NAMA is actually prohibited from selling debtor assets to debtors,but that will have to change,as in a lot of situations,they are the most logical buyer and also more likely to pay the highest price,as they know the assets intimately.
One critisim of NAMA,is that they are in fact NOT securing and protecting their collateral and are parsimonious with capital for upkeep,repairs.
Should NAMA,accept a lower price from a non NAMA’d buyer over a superior offer from a NAMA’d one ?
Regarding PG’s w/o the ability to forgive/forget/write them off,why would any sane skilled developer assist/work for NAMA,if they are going attemt to enforce them,after sweating for NAMA,think of the opportunity cost.
The issues are what criteria/standards are applied,awful lot of power for such a secretive organization,who decides.Is it subjective based on old school ties,or who has the most Polaroids,or an objective review process conducted by professionals,most likely the former.
Make no mistake, it is the belief of many of those within Nama upper echelons that many of the developers are the wealth creators of our society that must be allowed to start again as quickly as possible in order to ensure a quicker “recovery” in our property market.
If this sounds mad its because it is.
Prepare for the Nama of the little guy otherwise known as the personal insolvency bill to come with more terms and conditions than the original mortgages. and be less than useless to most of those with unplayable debt.
@ JohnGallagher
“Should NAMA,accept a lower price from a non NAMA’d buyer over a superior offer from a NAMA’d one”
Well the first thing that Nama should do is ask them where they got the money to buy it and that if this money had been available in the firstplace they would not have been in Nama.
But to answer your question directly, yes they should and they should then ask the Garda fraud department to investigate the levels of insolvency the developer claimed in the past.
+1
Garda Fraud (after a substantial upgrading with some nasty lawyers with Wall Street and Eastern Europe experience) plus Revenue Commissioners and ODCE.
@Eamonn go away out that,the Keystone Cops,how’s that Anglo investigation coming along….
Why should NAMA care where the money comes from,what if I was actually astute and placed some spare capital/cash into a trust.The trust has now vested,and the wife and kiddies decided to go into business with me,am I prohibited from buying NAMA assets.All taxes were paid,the trust was established prior to the downturn.
@ Eamonn here is Shatter other day in Dail on the longest,slowest,most inept criminal investigation in the history off the state.You want these guys investigation source of funds for potential buyers of NAMA assets ?
“Turning to the question of white collar crime generally, I remain resolute in my determination that such crimes be fully investigated in order that the perpetrators may be brought to justice. This commitment is underscored in the programme for Government and, on taking office, the Government gave priority to satisfying itself that the necessary resources, both personnel and legal, were available to the investigations connected with Anglo Irish Bank. I was given assurances that this was the case, but I made it clear at all times that I would address any concern brought to my attention.”
“On taking office, I raised a number of cases of white collar crime with the Garda Commissioner and I am being briefed on an ongoing basis on the progress of the investigations. I am assured by the Commissioner that the resources allocated to the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation are sufficient to meet the demands placed on it and I will respond, as necessary, to further legislative needs raised by An Garda Síochána or any of the other bodies involved in the investigation and prosecution of white collar crime.”
http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2012-06-20.269.0
This is wrong. It smacks of cronyism. The wider context has to be considered. At a time when average punters are being forced to shoulder developers debts, this will be viewed as grossly unfair.
The argument that developers are needed to complete projects is weak/ borderline untrue. What are their unique set of skills? The ability to lose billions doesn’t count.
I would have enforced all defaulted loans and chased any additional recoveries.
@Brian NAMA pissed away over 70 Million to third parties,in due diligence costs to overpay for their assets,amount spent on Anglo investigation,Zero!
Any experts from say SEC or London brought in to assist or third parity forensic consultants with expertise in these areas,nah the Guards can handle it !
“I am also informed that no money was paid to external consultants or forensic accountants by An Garda Síochána as part of the Anglo Irish Bank investigation.”
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/02/15/00177.asp
The lack of financial maturity in Ireland is staggering,it’s business,do you think the offshore funds,vulture capitalists,grave dancers,bottom feeders,financial vampires sniffing around for “blood on the streets” in Irish assets are morally superior or “better” that some indebted Irish developers .
I think I am on record in previous NWL discussions as saying that these personal guarantees should be enforced, up to loss of the family home. However, like politicians salaries, spending too much time on this is something of a displacement activity. Balancing the budget requires raising taxes on the €30k a year “middle Ireland” family, and getting the best return from NAMA has little to do with whether personal guarantees are enforced or not. Even requiring open advertising of properties for sale is probably much more important. Keep your main focus overwhelmingly on things that matter as substance, not as ‘optics’.
@Ahura,well that’s an oxymoron rite there,you have to borrow billions first to lose it that,a skill all in itself!
They tried your approach, pointless,no pot of gold at end of rainbow most developers broke,skint,insolvent.
How do you motivate or reward them,beat them around the head a bit more,go after the family home,or try to work out a consensual arrangement, mutually beneficial……..kinda like a partnership!
Regarding ‘cronyism’ the FT describe ‘stroke-serv’ the deal Dennis O’Brien struck with Anglo,to be exactly that.The Indo had great fun with the story of Seanie and PJ Mara whopping it up in Ponzan.But The Phoenix-on newsstands,sorry subscription only-exclusively revealed that none other than Dennis O’Brien flew Seanie out and hosted him-a little message perhaps !
Wonder how the Indo,missed that as they were in public together,the new owner must be pleased.
@otto enjoyed your TCD link very interesting paper,another myth,big homes are fantastic,lovely to live in when the cash is flying in the door.Pain in the as* when things are tight a big black hole,values in free-fall yet maintenance upkeep,heating,etc.Many developers would swap the prestigious mansion which can be a ball a chain for smaller more affordable home,and a Cortina!
Getting,into Padraig Flynn territory there,but the ‘answer’ is modern personal bankruptcy legislation for ALL,quite simple really.
No surprise re forgiveness for some, not for others.
Regarding political dynamite:
Political dynamite is the fact that it is only Sinn Fein who seem to be on the right track regarding the economy.
If someone with credibility and a history of fairness and goodwill could spread the message, people might actually listen.
Alas we have a voice that makes a lot of people nauseus spreading a message that makes peoples heads spin.
Could the smart ones not just leave, set up anew and win support by their own actions and thinking?
I reckon that’s the dynamite topic to come.
Only Pearse D and some others in Sinn Fein seem to know what their arse from their elbow.
Their wisdom is muddied by shades of their past and that’s a shame as this, today, is Ireland’s real fight.
I won’t win to many fans with this post I guess but forgive me as I wasn’t around in 1916 and I have never had a British person treat me badly. The idea of cutting of my nose off (in perpetuity) to satisfy what at this point is just destructive historic hatred, is not on. Nor is condoning the past.
What you might call a political Cul de Sac…..where some badly needed talent will rot.
Now that’s a shame.
FG/L won the last election because the electorate wanted FF out at any price and thought that FG/L would be different and better than FF. Since then they have been found to be just as bad and no different.
You would have expected that the governing parties would cop on to the simple fact that they can annoy some of the people some of the time but must not annoy the majority all the time. FG/L are lining themselves for a defeat similar to that inflicted on FF in the last election and seem to be doing everything possible to ensure that the next government will include SF.
Ah, well. It takes little to rise the rabble. The fact is that most developers are broke and it’s an impotent exercise to chase them to the ends of the earth. As JG says, most would be happy to leave the mansions if they could only sell them. The trophy assets, bought with a load of bank debt, are liabilities – not assets. NAMA realises this as they have seen the sworn statements of net worth and have had them independently checked – so they realise that pursuing developers further is akin bulling a dead cow. Joe Public, who is only informed by the tabloids, does not necessarily have access to the facts and relies on ignorance and journalists who like to wind him up. Most developers care less about personal guarantees. They have nothing to lose and for the future will use the “acorn” principal of building new assets in trusts or offshore entities unconnected with them. NAMA’s more sophisticated debtors would have taken advice years ago to protect assets if they were writing personal guarantees. The stupid banks just made assumptions and never asked who were the beneficial owners as opposed to the legal owners of their clients assets.
But NAMA, which is now between the rock and a hard place, realises that if the economy is to recover in this generation, it needs the help of those developers that are left standing. Why? Because the only buyers it has other than the bottom fishers from the Private Equity Funds (aka vulture funds), or foreign banks’ vulture funds are the domestic property and development companies. And there are no lenders other than NAMA itself. Even “blood in the streets” Blackstone looks to NAMA staple financing. So NAMA is like the hooker that pays for her own services.
As the economy continues to tank ever deeper into depression, public opinion will switch from vilifying developers to disparaging NAMA. NAMA knows this. The reason? The developers are all gone or going and are no longer a factor of any consequence in the ongoing downward spiral of the market. They can neither control it nor rectify it, All they can hope to do is help contribute to its revival, if NAMA wants to work with them. But they are largely irrelevant. They are the pedophile priests of this economy – dead and gone, and their place is about to be taken by their masters, the bishops of the nationalised property market. NAMA is the agency that was promoted as the saviour of the people, sent in like a white knight to save the banks, the economy and the taxpayer. The problem is that when you don’t succeed in providing the promised solution you become part of the problem. And that is where NAMA is today.
So with the help of the media, public opinion turns from the easy target that is no longer there, to the new object of derision that can’t provide the promised outcome and which is about to compete with the developers, bankers, FF politicians and regulators in terms of losses run up and foisted onto the taxpayer, but off an even lower price base.
Plus ca change….
@WSTT : you’re analysis is probably accurate. The insolvent Irish banks and the insolvent counterparty developers should have been left to fight it out between them – without any involvement from the taxpayer.
As it is we’re nearly 4 years in to the “Irish baking crisis” with absolutely no sign of a resolution in sight.
That should read “Irish banking crisis” and not “Irish baking crisis”.
Bloody phone!
@EM, If a developer or indeed any property investor wants to buy property from NAMA, they do not necessarily have to use their own money. Most seek to use OPM (other people’s money). The Private Equity Funds (the capital markets latest poster boy) are particularly adept at this and at collecting fees for placing it. At last count there were 1,856 PE funds in the USA putting together money to invest in european distressed assets.
Wilbur Ross and Blackstone are likely to put a fence around Ireland and claim it as their own before this is all over. What’s the difference between their money and that of the NAMA debtors?
To me it’s a question of who will pay the most, but then I’m a commercial animal – not an unforgiving vindictive begrudger who still believes that someone that loses money should be thrown into a debtors’ prison.
” To me it’s a question of who will pay the most, but then I’m a commercial animal – not an unforgiving vindictive begrudger who still believes that someone that loses money should be thrown into a debtors’ prison”
But surely it is only right that theses people are held some what responsible for the mess that they have left on the backs of the taxpayer. These guys should be encouraged to work with NAMA to secure the best return for the Taxpayer. We have seen that the Vast Majority of Real Property People are prepared to work with the Agency. However I would agree that enforcing PGs in the current Climate would not make much sense. And if the Debtor is engaging with the Agency then would see no reason why they should not be released from PGs.
I have a photo from a Dublin rally where young kids are angrily shouting “boooo” as a man yells the words ‘Developer’ and ‘Banker’ through a loudspekaer.
Young minds…blank slates,…long memories.
Wstt does a good PR job on developers behalf,(not to say that is his intention) but some developers still say charmingly “the country needs people like me” and actually believe they are either entitled or superior. But there is a bigger picture of emigration and austerity around which they have loopholes not open to others, or so it appears. Hence the anger.
Also
@Brian F and @ any young talented politicians who read this blog
The political void that exists right now is a dream, a perfect set up, for a young talented politician with vision. Unless he or she too becomes just another cog in a broken machine, getting all the grease and producing little in return. You would think ambition, talent and destiny would win out, but we’ll see.
Some people may remember the ‘stress tests’ by Blackrock,they having a bit of a stressful time themselves,the WSJ actually broke the story.Ahh,right ok then,he just decided to resign!
These guys have been kicking tires in Ireland along with other similar groups,assuming they make a profit,do you think its going to get repatriated stateside or reinvested into the Irish economy?
Spring the Irish people and developers from this farcical debt trap,pass modern BK laws,level the playing field.The US funds are ALWAYS non-recourse and wont blink an eye walking away from ‘debt’ if the deal sours,nor should they as big boys,pity poor old NAMA negotiating with them.Oh hold on that’s the justification for their hellacious salaries,best and brightest and all that.Give them some competition,allow the local developers to bid against them,enhances the return for the taxpayer,creates employment and tax revenue too.
“BlackRock is committed to avoiding not only actual conflicts of interest, but even the appearance of a conflict. As we have worked through with Dan Rice how to best avoid any perception of conflict involving his family’s energy company, Dan has decided to retire from BlackRock,” a spokeswoman said in an e-mailed statement.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/21/blackrock-rice-idUSL1E8HLKJF20120621
“As this column reported two weeks ago, BlackRock hasn’t disclosed in any of its public filings that Mr. Rice also has a multimillion-dollar side business in the energy industry. A BlackRock spokeswoman says the firm didn’t disclose these relationships because it isn’t required to.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303410404577468622975187312.html
dynamite, yes. keep striking the match.
The personal insolvency bill will be botched, look north and copy. There’s no sin in saying the English and the Northern Ire’sh got it right and we’ll just copy them.
@sf
“with vision” plus competence, leadership, honesty, good example and straight talking.
@WSTT
The prisons are already sutuffed with debtors whose combined debts are probably a lot less than the written off debts of Nama’s smallest borrower. Definitely, moral hazard and punishment are for the little people.
If a Nama borrower has really given his all to Nama, I absolutely agree that Nama should give him the chance to restart. However, if borrowers are playing ducks and drakes then the book should be thrown at them until such time that they see sense; can be trusted; and repay their debts to the maximum extent possible.
Let us not lose perspective – we are talking about unpaid debts of €40 bn plus interest lost. Much of this admittedly should never have been lent but given that “we are where we are”, society is entitled to the maximum possible repayment even if it knocks some high flyers off their pedestals, requires sale of the family silver and involves social Welfare type investigations, tax audits and liquidators’ reports.
Just think of the impact on the economy and society if even a fraction of these outstanding debts were repaid. Look at the fuss over Wallace’s unpaid VAT-related debt of about €2 mn (including penalities) and compare this with the fact that EACH Nama borrower stands on average to be forgiven debts of 23 TIMES greater than Wallace’s (40,000/850/2). Can citizens be blamed for being extremely angry and demanding maximum restitution (where this is available on either legal or moral grounds) especially given that (to date) forgiveness has been restricted to a specific class of borrower.
@BF,
Good Day, Brian. It delights me that we always see things so differently. (BTW, my little mac says “hello” and wants to know when you’re going to talk to her? ;-)
I don’t know of any prison that is stuffed with debtors. There may be a few in for contempt, but I am not aware that losing money, being broke or being unable to pay one’s debts are criminal offenses.
“Throwing the book” at any debtor is a difficult task. The debtor’s Plan B (and sometimes Plan A) is bankruptcy. Short of that, if proper financial planning has taken place, it is unlikely that those tasked with trawling through a sophisticated debtor’s assets will recover anything other than the debtor has allowed for. How much of their assets do you think that the great and good – and wealthy – in Ireland have in their own names? The few that I know have very little. They have offshore Trusts and QIFs and their houses are probably sheltered in vehicles that will exist long after they have fallen off their perches.
So we are talking about the relatively financially unsophisticated developers, who did not take advice from KPMG et al, and who thought that transferring a few assets to the wife to avoid their NAMA debts was the height of financial planning. The really high flyers do not fit into this category.
As for Mick Wallace, you know that there is a big difference between actually choosing not to pass over VAT that you have collected on behalf of the Revenue, knowingly keeping it for your own purposes and alternatively, being a “victim” of the fall in the property market following a credit bubble.
Most borrowers were silly enough to believe that “the trees grow to Heaven” in terms of property prices. And these were not just developers, they were the unfortunate generation that borrowed 90% against homes that cost €500,000 plus and are now worth €230,000 at best. (There is a demand for 3 bedroom semis in the ‘burbs for €230,000 – if there was a bank in town still standing to finance the construction, or a builder not in NAMA that the banks would lend to if they had the money to do so.)
But then when it comes to our perception of our own smartness or ability it is only when it is tested (like our rugby team against the All Blacks) that we realise how little we do know, how unsophisticated we really are and how ill-prepared we are to play against the All Blacks of the financial world.
We are too busy holding grudges and seeking to criminalise those who have lost and are leaving because there is nothing for them here. The real culprits will never be prosecuted because the “Green Jersey” encouragement to be a “cute hoor” in terms of our banking and finances went all the way to the top.
@WSTT
My wrong. There are only 200+ people in prison for non-payment of debts (3%+ of the prison pop)*. I had included non-payers of fines in my figures.
So you seem to be suggesting that the big borrowers, on course to secure massive debt forgiveness, have accumulated wealth which cannot be touched due to clever wealth planning while ordinary citizens have to make up their shortfall of €40 bn.
Me thinks that the rules of the “game” need changing to level the playing pitch. It is not a case of grudges or revenge, but rather a matter of fairness and morality – items in very short supply in Ireland – and the fact that Ireland faces a huge financial and social crisis. Look at the outrage and condemnation of the Jersey-based K2 scheme, which is said to be sheltering a MERE £168m a year from the UK Treasury.
* For more info on debtors and prisons, see http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=debtors%20in%20irish%20prison&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oireachtas.ie%2Fparliament%2Fmedia%2Fhousesoftheoireachtas%2Flibraryresearch%2Fspotlights%2FDebt_Part_3-_the_imprisonment_of_civil_debtors.pdf&ei=-tHlT5-yNsnQhAf2razKCQ&usg=AFQjCNEE5AYlUg_krZDsG4orPs0muK5D9g&sig2=UNQsh105Y8TsBC_ljXJQ4Q
@BF, I’m surprised by the number in jail, Brian. It shows how much we need real insolvency reform.
On the subject of Irish wealth – real wealth is international. It knows no boundaries and it is never personal. The last place the really wealthy leave their money is in their own name so that it can be collected by local tax authorities on the demise of the owner, or by obstreperous banks when they turn Turk.
@WSTT
Based on what you are saying Nama et al should be intensifying their asset searching and pursuit of debtors’ assets rather than (apparently) easing off – see P44 in the C & AG report at http://www.nama.ie/download/publications/SpecialReportC+AG.pdf
I notice that a international law firm Maples and Calder which according to its home page advises “financial, institutional and business clients around the world on the laws of the Cayman Islands, Ireland and the British Virgin Islands” is increasing its Irish workforce by one-third to 250. Maybe, it could be of assistance to Nama. See http://www.maplesandcalder.com/jurisdictions/
@Brian, It’s a complete waste of time. The assets are never held personally. Ab initio, they are held in offshore trusts or other arms length vehicles, sometimes even with untraceable bearer shares. As JG says, we are keystone cops compared to the financial expertise that protects these assets, or as I would put it, like the Irish rugby team against the All Blacks – just a waste of time. A classic example of an impotent exercise at its purest.
@BF, PS, Brian. Kroll are the gold standard for asset investigation and recovery: Others don’t come close. But they are ridiculously expensive.
http://www.krolladvisory.com/investigations/asset-searches-recovery/
At a annual cost of almost 80,000 each…..
“This week, Ireland AM featured a discussion on the need to reduce the prisoner population of Ireland over time. There are currently over 4,500 people incarcerated in Ireland, at a cost of about €77,000 per prisoner ..”
Current plan by Labour is to garnish your wages at source for non payment,nice.How progressive of them.Time for a change at the top or face irrelevance and oblivion.
http://www.iprt.ie/contents/2284
The solution to insolvency of regular folk could rightly be considered to be part of a broader ‘stimulus’ package, given the need for domestic growth and consumer spending if a recovery is to happen.
An insolvency bill of sorts billed as ‘stimulus’ would make it more attractive and would also imply the EU could pay some costs from a stimulus fund.
The government could make this so, it is part spin, part facts and figures, it’s not magic.
They just don’t have the imagination (or negotiating skills) to think this way.
I think we have our own private country ‘progress trap’ going on at the moment, mature insolvency laws may hurt the banks in the short term but the country will gain in the near medium term.
“drowning in jobs”
http://www.michele.me/blog/archives/2012/05/the-talk-that-ted-wont-show/
@WSTT
I havent been on the blog in a few days but thankfully Brian flannagan wiped the floor with your very messed up moral compass. So messed up in fact is alludes to a conflict of interest. Or do you just park that when it comes to large developers for some reason? You seem to hold the view that because rich people are more successful hiding their assets we should just stand back and let them at it. I like Brian Do not advocate a debtors prison but if people are bankrupt, part of the process is that they are stripped of their assets (all of them even the sneaky hidden ones). That there are ways of avoiding this simple act of fairness and part of a normal bankruptcy procedure for these people is a reason to get stricter. I would suggest an investment in hiring some qualified people by Nama, But it wont happen. Too many powerful people that attend the same Golf Clubs as those who sit at Nama’s top table.
@EM, Can we leave out the ad hominem remarks? I stated facts. I am prepared to argue those facts. I did not make moral judgements on them. If you wish to believe that things are different, that’s your prerogative.
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