As the old Moscow Rules say, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence and three times is enemy action. Yesterday I couldn’t help but notice a striking resemblance in theme in articles penned by three separate contributors inIreland’s Sunday Independent. All three contributors wrote about the Irish residential property market, which has suffered a crash in the past four years, all of the articles contained factual errors or fuzzy or faulty logic and all three concluded that we were pretty much at the bottom in terms of prices for Irish residential property.
First up, there was this article from Marc Coleman who is generally an economic commentator and has some academic qualifications in that area. There are some major factual errors in the report.
“Far from 300,000 properties being vacant the National Institute for Spatial and Regional Analysis estimates that the number of vacant properties is in the region of 100,000.” The study by the National Institute for Spatial and Regional Analysis is available here, and it is consistent with at least two other academically referenced studies by UCD and economics consultancy, DKM. All conclude that there are in fact 300-350,000 vacant homes in the country but when you deduct holiday homes and allow for homes that are usually vacant in any country and the level of homes that are usually on the market, you are left with 100,000+ which are an overhang, that is, an excess in vacant homes over long terms average vacancies. It is wrong, and in the context of the thrust of the article, misleading to say that NISRA “estimates that the number of vacant properties is in the region of 100,000”
“Against the backdrop of a third of a million population increase — and with statistics indicating about 2.6 persons per household — there is no shortage of demand to mop up this excess” This is based on the population increase between 2006 and 2011. Unfortunately we do not have an annual analysis of the population increase. The CSO publishes annual estimates based on a survey of a sample of households and that is the best we have in terms of annual figures. And the CSO suggests that the period 2006-2011 has a tale of two halves – population was growing strongly in 2006-2008 but then emigration returned. That led to the CSO’s estimate for 2011 being that population grew by just 13,600 in the 12 months to April 2011. There may have been “a third of a million population increase” between 2006-2011 or 65,000 on average a year, but from today it seems as if population growth will be much slower.
“around 40 per cent of the €3bn paid in stamp duty between 2004 and 2007 — around €1.25bn — was paid by homeowners” The Revenue Commissioner stamp duty figures for residential property are here. In 2004, €744.2m was paid on residential property transactions, in 2005 it was €922.3m, in 2006 it was €1,300.8m and in 2007 it was €1012.9m. How Mark gets either €3bn or €1.25bn is beyond my reading of the figures.
But it is not the factual errors but the logic that seems most dangerously faulty. Marc says
“As the latest Central Statistic Office house price index shows, average property prices are now 46 per cent below peak 2007 levels and roughly back to 2002 levels. Have they fallen enough? Could they fall further? Have they fallen too far? The distressed state of the property market strongly suggests the latter to be the case.”
This doesn’t make sense. If a market is properly functioning it can lead to high or low prices. If a market is distressed or not properly functioning, for example through the absence of credit, it probably means that the market tips downward because of a lack of demand, but even if credit subsequently becomes available, other factors like oversupply, increased cost of holding property with property taxes for example, lower take-home and disposable income and transparency – for example from the House Price Database that is expected to be introduced before mid-2012 – can all act to reduce prices in a functioning market.
“While we need a thorough report to be sure, several indicators suggest that price levels prevailing in the year 2004 — while overvalued in that particular year — are probably now a good benchmark of where the market should settle: even if government forecasts are optimistic, Gross National Product and Gross Domestic Product should this year settle at 2004 and 2005 levels, respectively. Despite widening spreads with base rates, European Central Bank rate cuts mean that retail mortgage interest rates are broadly similar to 2004 levels. Despite higher unemployment, the level of employment, 1,805,500 persons, is consistent with 2004 levels.”
Marc is suggesting that 2004 was a normal year for Ireland’s property market, and that when we discount the bubble and bust, we will return to price levels that pertained in 2004. But 2004 was before the time when we were building close to 100,000 homes a year, before Irish households became the most indebted in the world, before the return of net outward migration, before banks had massive deleveraging targets and when the country had a debt to GDP of close to 25%.
“Between 2007 highs and current lows there is a sensible mid-point that can be achieved if bank lending resumes and two more policy changes occur: a decisive shift away from tax increases and towards real spending reductions: having risen by 55 per cent between 2004 and 2009 gross current spending needs to fall now by much more than the mere seven per cent envisaged in the Government’s expenditure and reform plans.”
It is hard to see the connection between stabilising house prices on one hand, and cuts to Govt spending on the other. Cuts to Govt spending equal a smaller public sector with the reduction looking for jobs elsewhere in a fairly weak economy, lower wages for public sector workers which will depress demand throughout the economy and act to drive down property prices to match new affordability levels and lower social welfare payments which will do the same, particularly so if property related allowances like rent allowance are reduced.
Secondly we had an article by Maeve Sheehan which trumpets the headline “bottom reached but banks must start to lend”. As you study the article to find out how Maeve arrives at her conclusion, you come away unsatisfied. There is a claim by one estate agent who is selling property at 70% below peak values that “I actually think we are at the bottom”. But the country’s main property index from the CSO suggests we are 46% from the peak, so individual sales at 70% off might be close to the bottom, but that is not where prices are nationally right now. The only other statement I can find in support of the headline is “some analysts have predicted another five per cent drop for 2012” This is an orphaned claim. Ronan Lyons whose recent DAFT.ie report is extensively cited in the article said last week that he thought prices would decline by 60% from the peak, the same DAFT report showed that prices were now down 52.1%; this suggests that prices will drop a further 17% before they reach the bottom (€100,000 property at peak is worth €48,000 now after a 52% decline. If the bottom is at €40,000 representing a 60% decline, then prices will need drop by €8,000 from today’s levels and €8,000 is 17% of €48,000). Separately, as someone who closely watches property price predictions, I know of no projection that I could make fit into a statement “some analysts have predicted another five per cent drop for 2012” – you can see this blog’s compilation of projections from different sources here. Maeve concludes with “so house prices hurtle towards the bottom and then what?”. Again this rhis runs counter to the evidence from the country’s main index, the CSO monthly residential property series, which says that prices are typically falling 1-2% per month – from current levels, about 0.5-1% from peak levels – in recent months. To get to a 60% decline from peak would take well over a year – hardly “hurtling”.
And lastly we had a couple of articles by chief reporter Daniel McConnell, one which promotes the joys of home ownership despite negative equity and concludes with the upbeat sentiments “we certainly hope that the bottom is here, or near at least. But the time was right for us to buy. We have no regrets, we are happy and have been lucky.”. The other suggests that up to one in four homes is now bought with cash but that seems to be based on a quote from Edward Carey, the former acting chief executive of the Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute and current owner of Property Team Carey Auctioneers who says “I would say a quarter of deals at present are being done in cash”. Fair enough, Edward is an experienced property man, but the most recent figures from the Revenue Commissioners from 2009 show that 94% of transactions were with mortgage finance and only 6% with cash. Daniel also says “the Central Bank is working on the basis of a 55 per cent slippage in house prices between 2007 and 2013, but last week’s reports from both Daft.ie and MyHome.ie show that values have already fallen by roughly that figure” Myhome.ie actually say we’re 43% down from peak which is hardly “roughly” 55%. It’s not clear what is meant by the phrase “the Central Bank is working on the basis”. In its stress testing in March 2011, the Central Bank had a baseline scenario of 55% and an adverse of 60% declines from peak. The implication I took from the Central Bank’s work however was that it had based current prices on the PTSB/ESRI index which was Ireland’s premier index until the CSO index supplanted it in May 2011. And in March 2011, the PTSB/ESRI was saying that prices were just 39% down from peak which implied a further 26% decline to bring to the Central Bank’s baseline scenario (€100,000 at peak meant a price of €61,000 in December 2010 according to the PTSB/ERSI’s decline of 39%; to get from €61,000 to the Central Bank’s baseline scenario of €45,000 there would need be a €16,000 decline which is 26% decline)
I can’t help but remark that if indeed we have reached the bottom of the property market and prices are now stabilising, then that will tend to encourage banks to lend to borrowers without such fear for their security and negative equity; increased lending, and more general confidence on the part of buyers will tend to increase transactional activity; an increase in transactional activity should lead to an increase in property advertising; and an increase in property advertising should help the finances of newspapers. Yesterday about 250,000 people will have bought the Sunday Independent and an average of four people will have read each copy giving an overall estimated readership of 1m. I wonder how many are convinced that we are at the bottom? Of course the Moscow Rules can promote paranoia and it is perfectly possible that all three contributors independently arrived at their conclusions on Irish property. If you want to see a recent extreme – that shouldn’t be meant as implying inaccuracy or fault – projection of prices, take a look at Cormac Lucey’s projections which suggest we end up at 75% from peak – at least you will see some factually accurate data in support of the projection.
I recommend you read the three caveats here that I suggest should accompany any property price projection from any source. It’s worth repeating that none of us has a crystal ball, that the “market” doesn’t necessarily apply to individual transactions and perhaps, in light of the above reporting, that it is worth bearing in mind the potential for ulterior motivations in those providing predictions.
UPDATE: 2nd March 2012. It seems that Irish News and Media has considered the management accounts for the first two months of 2012 and decided its property advertising revenue needs to recover quickly! Or at least that is one conclusion for the article in today’s Independent Property Plus where error and illogic are the order of the day. First up the error, the Independent says ” Meanwhile investors also appear to be calling the bottom of the Dublin apartment market. While Dublin home prices fell 4pc in January, for the second month in a row, apartment prices rose in the capital — up 2.4pc in January” This is just plain wrong. The CSO index for apartments in Dublin published this week was 52.0 for January 2012 and 53.9 for December 2011. In other words, apartments fell by 3.5% in January 2012 and DIDN’T increase by 2.4% as claimed by the Independent. Elsewhere it is illogic which makes the Independent conclude that buyers are being unrealistic. The newspaper claims “So some cash rich buyers at the top of the market are calling the bottom when it comes to prices for these homes.” in reference to recent purchases on south Dublin city’s most prestigious addresses but there is no support for the conclusion that these buyers are “calling the bottom” other than they are actually buying property. Is everyone who buys a property today “calling the bottom”? Seems so at the Independent. But the real kicker for illogic comes from the citing of the recently published DAFT 2012 consumer perceptions report which showed that 49.9% of prospective buyers polled by DAFT and related websites were intending to pay €125-250,000 for their home. On the other hand 61.5% wanted a 4/5 bedroom detached home. Nationally this is quite possible at present. However the Independent zooms in on the most expensive location in the country and the most desirable in terms of the 15% of DAFT respondents, and says you won’t get a 4/5 bedroom detached home for anything like that in south Dublin city! Seriously, that’s the logic. The Independent concludes with “when it comes to purchasing a home the key decision rests with being able to afford the home of your choice in the location of your choice. One should not decide solely on wishing to boast about how you got your timing right.” Hmmm, and what about a key consideration being “not losing 20% of the value of your home in the next couple of years”? That it seems would deter prospective buyers and consequently might deter sellers and that all-important advertising dollar. And to conclude the Independent takes a swipe at economists – “bargain hunting home buyers are keeping their fingers crossed that prices have further to fall and they are being aided and abetted in this belief by economists who predict such declines”
On twitter last evening Marc engaged, as to be fair he usually does. He sticks with the 2004 as benchmark which suggests that we need an approx 25% rise from where we are now.
As far as it is possible to ‘engage’ in 140 characters or less. Perhaps Coleman can make a case in doubleplusgood duckspeak. Or in RTE / Sindo parochial sound-bites. But in language involving the higher brain centres? Not a chance.
I think the high cash transaction comes from two sources, the first are the CSO stats which are based upon mortgage transactions and claim to have 75% market coverage, the implication being that the other 25% is some other form of purchase finance (cash). And then there is Mark Fitzgerald and SherryFitz report out last Tuesday which states that 30% of transactions are in cash – their business represents a large chunk of the market.
The PTsb/CSO one was likely inaccurate by 03/11 because last year they did only €200m in lending, the sample base was too small and that again, is based on draw-downs, one issue of which are the properties for which offers are made accepted but don’t get mortgaged at valuation stage (ie: sales price is too high or conservative valuers valuations are only in line with properties bought below AMV – which may be correct – we can’t know).
As for ulterior motives by a vested interest regular, my mortgage market outlook is here
Click to access mortgage%20market%20trend%20outlook%202012.pdf
@Karl,
“the first are the CSO stats which are based upon mortgage transactions and claim to have 75% market coverage, the implication being that the other 25% is some other form of purchase finance (cash).”
I don’t think that’s right. The CSO attaches notes to its monthly publication
Click to access rppi_nov2011.pdf
“”The table below shows that, in volume terms, the mortgage drawdown data covers in excess of 75% of the
market, as measured by Stamp Duty returns, in 4 of the 5 years between 2005 and 2009.”
In 2009, the last full year for which the split has been published, the market by volume was 94% mortgage: 6% cash
This is what I believe Sherry FitzGerald said last week
“Interestingly, approximately 1,250 active buyers registered with Sherry FitzGerald in Dublin stated they were cash buyers. This represents 29% of total and is a continuation of a trend evident since the beginning of 2011. ”
Prospective cash buyers are not necessarily actual cash buyers.
Fair point on 09′ but that was two year ago and the vista may have changed significantly in 11′. Drawdowns this year are likely to be in the region of 13,500 so we’ll need to find out if the number of transactions is around 18,000 for the year for this to be true. If it is far lower than that then your thesis holds.
Regarding SherryFitz, the report mentioned 29% of registered buyers as you quote, what Mark Fitzgerald said at the AIB meeting in December (we were at the same table) is that 30% of purchases were cash – I’d take that as being completions unless this is a case of crossed wires.
It is perhaps too early to make a call either way but evidence of what may be a live figure cannot be disregarded
@Karl, fair points. The CSO is expecting to shortly include with its monthly residential price index, an indication of the overall market based on information that will be provided by the Revenue.
The cash:mortgage ratio may well have increased since 2009 (it fell from 2008 to 2009 which might be regarded as surprising). The total stamp duty on property transactions for 2010 which was released recently indicates the market is indeed very small at present, cash or mortgage.
https://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/stamp-duty-on-irish-property-sales-in-2010-just-e600000-collected-in-longford-and-leitrim/
@Karl, I see that a report from DNG today claims that cash sales comprise one third of all purchases.
http://irishexaminer.com/business/a-third-of-house-buyers-pay-in-cash-180548.html
This doesn’t appear to be included in the 2011 review/ 2012 preview from the nationwide estate agent, but supports the claims from the ex SCSI CEO and Sherry FitzGerald.
Click to access DNGReview2011Outlook20121.PDF
“There may have been “a third of a million population increase” between 2006-2011 or 65,000 on average a year, but from today it seems as if population growth will be much slower.”
Marc Coleman has some rather bizarre views on population projections. He believed the population of the Republic would hit 8 million by 2050 and, judging by this article, he hasn’t changed his mind.
He’s been predicting that we’ve hit rock bottom since at least 2008. Every new low is rock bottom: he’s been very consistent on this.
@ NWL,
I think you missed this one:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/brendan-oconnor-maybe-it-is-time-to-stop-thinking-of-property-as-a-nogo-area-2982478.html
It does seem to be editorial policy. Ireland’s a great place for people to talk sh*te, be exposed for talking sh*te and get invited to talk more sh*te.
@Ahura, thanks. Brendan’s piece is indeed in a similar vein but it avoids any claim that you easily contradict. He refers to his sources as “some people”, “those in the know”, “at least three different [unnamed] experts”, “the grapevine”, “the [unnamed] rich ones”
He doesn’t refer to figures or stats.
Also I regard Maeve Sheehan and Daniel McConnell as career journalists. And Marc Coleman puts himself forward as a financial commentator and has academic qualifications in that area. Brendan to my mind is more of a traditional columnist, a jack of all trades – entertaining and engaging but you wouldn’t really look to him for financial guidance.
Excellent analyses NWL.
One could be forgiven for thinking this is a standard PR technique where one message is echoed by a number of different people. The republicans in the US are masters at it where the same talking points are echoed by different people on different news channels. FOX news is a classic example where the same words are used over and over to drive the message home. Facts, figures, data are elastic to people who need to get on message.
It works if enough different “experts” keep saying the housing market has bottomed out its hard for the ordinary punter to think otherwise. Only a few like NWL help keep the discussion clean.
One small difficulty, the Irish punter has been burned by the experts before.
It might take a wee bit longer to turn this perception around.
Sad to watch the Irish Times every Thursday sell it’s ethical soul with large shots of palatial homes. The addiction of the print media to property porn continues.
We’ve got very used to the mis-use or mis-interpretation of NIRSA work on vacancy and oversupply. Interesting how different journalists seek to mis-quote the data to the advantage of their argument. In the past few days NIRSA has been quoted in The Guardian as stating that 400,000 houses in Ireland are vacant and by Marc Coleman in the Sunday Indo as stating that 100,000 houses are vacant. Our early 2010 estimate was that c.300,000 houses were vacant and the overhang was about 120,000. The Census 2011 tells us that 294,202 units were vacant in April 2011. Overhang is likely to be 80-100,000 depending on how many of these units are holiday homes. As I said in my last comment on NWL, expect puff pieces talking the market up from property analysts all year.
The Independent has obviously decided it’s readers need to be lied to – repeatedly.
They’ve apparently decided the way to keep people buying their product – and hence, keep the advertisers buying the space – is to ignore reality and retreat to the past.
Their articles have the faint whiff of a “friend” consoling a heart-broken, disconsolate, jilted woman-of-a-certain-age.
The trick isn’t to be right.
It definitely isn’t about being rational and factual.
It isn’t even about being honest or truthful.
You must only say what she wants to hear.
She still has her looks.
She still is in her prime.
Any man would be lucky to have her.
The future holds nothing but promise.
The best is yet to come.
You must also remember to denigrate the new woman – the German bitch!
As a nation – it’s all heavy make-up, afternoon G&Ts and cats from here on…
you just have to sift through his earlier masterpieces to see him contradicting himself over and over again.
He has one tragic flaw. He thinks that a healthy functioning property market leads to a healthy functioning economy.
In this article he mentions that in 1996 he said:
“For my part, in 1996 in Business and Finance I forecast that house prices would continue to increase for at least seven years.
For my part, in 1996 in Business and Finance I forecast that house prices would continue to increase for at least seven years. Eight years later I wrote that the market was becoming overvalued as credit conditions loosened. ”
In 1996 we had a strong manufacturing base, rising income, falling unemployment, rise in two income households, falling interest rates, falling cost of credit, rising immigration (rising accommodation demand), falling taxes and so on.
I would love him to explain how house prices will firstly stop falling and secondly start rising (to a point where he is no longer in negative Equity, minus what he would have paid in rent, or dead money as he calls it), I haven’t seen the B&F article, but I bet if we were to look at it then it may mention these factors.
BTW Marc, our young and healthy population are leaving in droves, they don’t live here anymore. It’s just us – you the well paid in employment mortgage payer and me the renter….
@NWL
Perhaps Cormac Lucey has more gravitas in the financial world than mere humble beings such as myself but the rent analysis in his report is virtually word for word what I’ve been boring people with for the past three years.
His 7% yield number is about right but he correctly states that it is highly likely that mean reverting markets will most probably push through long run numbers and the evidence from the Allsops auctions suggest this is what is happening on the ground. Importantly the Allsops auction returns tell us that 86% of sales on average are done for cash. I’ve suggested here before the when the cash buyers dry up and the financial risk for these property transactions increases the yields will rise well beyond the 8.5% which the average residential property has sold for thus far in the Allsops space.
Working on the basis of an additional 0.5% rise in yields from 8.5% to 9% for the market as a whole to compensate for the additional risk in any mortgage deal compared to cash would see PTT falls average at 75%. Cormac Lucey correctly states that this is also on the assumption of stable rents. Whilst we have seen rents stabalise of the past year or so surely the recent and ongoing adjustments in Rent Allowances can only have one consequence in nominal rents i.e. lower, which means that the 75% PTT falls is probably best case – so Cormacs 80% to 90% falls is in no way scaremongering and for the national press to suggest otherwise is simply avoiding basic risky asset markets long run trends which have exhibited and have studied to death for the past 150 years.
The bigger question is what is the likely hole in the banks balance sheets working off falls of 80% from the peak?
I see today where the Basel banking rules are likely to be relaxed for ongoing recessionary times. Finally the penny has dropped.
Surely its not beyond the wit of Mr. Elderfield to enact such a stance today and allow the covered banks to take the losses are write off the daft mortgage debts happy in the knowledge that the taxpayer won’t be asked to cough up any more to comply with equally crazy bank capital rules which we have today for institutions which should have been placed into administration 3 years ago.
Regarding the demographics, looking at the CSO estimates ( http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/current/Population%20and%20Migration%20Estimates%20April%202011.pdf ) it’s not quite so simple.
Since 2006 the population is estimated to have increased by 244,500. However by my calculations 48% of this (1,181,000 persons) are in the age group 0-14, who are unlikely to be buying houses in the immediate future. Equally the numbers in the age group 20 to 30 is lower by about 100,000 than in 2006 (not only due to emigration – birth rates were lower in the late 80s and early 90s).
There are about 30,000 more in the 30-44 bracket, but the other factor that comes into place is the “getting the foot on the ladder”. How many of this bracket bought during the boom for fear if they didn’t buy now they never could?
Given the age spreads and the probability of many people having stepped into the market already, surely the market should be getting weaker anyway, regardless of the (massive) (lack of) credit, unemployment, uncertainty and reduction in income issues?
The Sunday Independent has the biggest circulation figure by far .
Irish people dont like facts or logic so the Sindo provides them with a reality they can stomach.
The value of the Sindo is it shows you where the mind of the bulk of Middle Ireland is right now.
Because the give t it away for free in local businesses and pubs.
Biggest circulation does not equal most popular or most profitable.
It was, during the boom, a property newspaper with a news supplement attached to it.
The S/indo and it’s cheerleaders wouldn’t know a fact or logic if it jumped up and bit them on the nose……
Events over the weekend with the increase in the number of debtors walking, taking the ferry to the UK, or giving NAMA some lessons in international corporate loan transactions (watch this space this week) has all the portents of further deterioration in NAMA’s relationship with its borrowers. The next phase is open warfare. The dice is loaded against the debtors, but they can’t be stopped from leaving the table and being re-born elsewhere debt-free.
NAMA is going to be caught in a market in free-fall as the UK banks realise that there is an increasing likelihood that Ireland may be separated from the euro and that their exposure to Irish property takes on a new risk. They will sell. That is when we will see the bottom of the market.
That is when it will be seen that NAMA has no clothes. And that is when the extent of NAMA’s loss will be realised by the media and the public.
I’m with Ahura M, at the moment, the media property pundits are as right as they were in 2006. The best that can be said of them is that they are a contrary indicator.
“Malicous simply not true”
To paraphrase O’Brien in NYT,may have been speaking about the Indo,but was related to “inquires”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/07/business/digicels-denis-obrien-helps-rebuild-haiti.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
‘Confidence in the Media’
http://www.elevate.ie/confidence-in-media/
“Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan TD, started his speech by demonstrating how Ireland’s economy had rapidly stabilized, adding that second-quarter gross national product, which excludes profits from multinationals based here, fell an unadjusted 4.1% on the year, compared with an 11.4% annual decline in the corresponding period last year. “There are very, very few economies in economic history that have moved from a 11% fall to a position of stabilization in a period of one year,” Lenihan said. “This is a remarkable turnaround and it is important that we bring it to the attention of potential investors.” He also referenced the importance of good journalism and the need for fair and accurate reporting.”
There is really no comment that I can make that can justify that type of utterly delusional spin. We were governed by halfwits with no commercial sense whatsoever – and he was Minister for Finance!
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”
Same link,does Corrigan on 500,000 a year have nothing better to do…ehm hold on probably not Ireland is out of the bond markets,may as well attend a few conferences,and become an echo for O’Brien.
“John Corrigan of the NTMA discussed this week’s bond sale and claimed our banking and fiscal problems are very manageable. He criticised the measurement of statistics in some media and echoed Denis O’Brien’s call for balanced reporting, as opposed to scare mongering.”
Good analysis.
There’s also the continued campaign to write off debts for those in negative equity.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/its-time-we-followed-brave-ballyheas-lead-2982591.html
This one is a nice article supporting Ballyhea on the face of it, but at the end slipping in the idea that people’s mortgages should be “reduced to current market values.” By magic, one assumes.
@ConorE, No Conor, not by magic – by debt resolution. The “hit” has already been taken by the banks and their shareholders and the taxpayer has re-funded the banks for their losses. The banks are trying to hold this refinance to themselves and not pass the benefit on to its customers. Until they do this, there will be no recovery. It is not without precedent.
@tiger I understand that. The implication of these articles seems to be that the debt will just go away, magically vanish into the ether, not that the taxpaying readers of the Sunday Independent will be paying for it via the recapitalisation of the banks.
Allowing people to hold on to assets purchased in the bubble by taxing their neighbours to pay for the losses is simply wrong, on any number of levels. It’s morally repugnant and does not in my opinion make economic sense either.
@ConorE, The taxpaying readers of the Indo are already paying for it – whether the people hold on to their homes on not. The losses were transferred to the taxpayers the day the government guaranteed the banks. Nothing that happens in terms of allowing (or not allowing) debt reduction to underwater borrowers will change that.
@NWL excellent post.
Good to see someone keeping an eye on the journalists and estate agents. Surveys from CBRE, Savills, DTZ, Sherry Fitz, Lisneys, DGN, HOK, HWBC etc. should come with a health warning and a big red flag saying BEWARE VESTED INTEREST AT WORK. To be fair to the chartered surveyors/estate agents they are ‘doing their job’ promoting their own interests and have long ago given up on any pretence of objectivity or professionalism. We should congratulate Lisneys on their increased profits, up 30% despite there being very few property transactions last year -no mention of NAMA fees in their report OR a thank you to the tax payer for the increased profits or even less likely an apology for the bill they have landed us with. The chartered surveyors should have another flag to wave before they pontificate “WE DESTROYED THE COUNTRY WITH OUR MAD VALUATIONS”.
However we should be able to rely on journalists doing their job and expect that they would make some pretense at some investigative journalism. In the main the papers just publish press releases from the developer companies or chartered surveyors. You would expect them to show some caution now since the Irish Times lost heavily on their investment in ‘myhome.ie’ (paid 50 million) putting the future of the paper at risk. So too have property journalists been stung having bought or been gifted commercial and residential property, believing their own spin. Now they have to try pump the market up again – thus Sunday Indo doing their bit this week.
Mr. Peter Nyberg in his report into the Irish Banking collapse concluded that:
“the media paid relentless attention to the property market, lauded Anglo Irish Bank and were “dismissive” of warnings about the bubble economy.”
Plus ca change
So NWL would need a crystal ball to see the bottom of the property market and Peter Bacon does not seem to know what a “natural bottom “is.Well while we cannot predict the future sure enough we can look at the norm or should I say “natural” situation with property prices that obtained in the past.That is, what effort (remuneration) was required to purchase a property over a long period of years.Well from 1959 to 1996(37years) the national average price of a 3 bed semi was 2.5 times(approx.)the average industrial wage.But from 1996 to 2007 this ratio increased to 9 times (approx) the national average industrial wage.If we accept this logic and I’m not forcing it on anybody the normal or natural average national price of a 3 bed semi should be €32K x 2.5 = €80,000.So it would appear to me that prices will fall to this level before a bottom is reached.Taking a high of €313K at peak this represents a drop of about 75% from peak.But of course this level has already been reached with some properties in the Allsop-Space auctions and now the question is will they drop below the historical average.I believe that they will and possibly up to 90% below due to shortage of credit,overhang of property,unemployment,rising prices,property tax, water,energy,…etc,etc.
@spo, “from1959 to 1996(37years) the national average price of a 3 bed semi was 2.5 times(approx.)the average industrial wage. But from 1996 to 2007 this ratio increased to 9 times (approx) the national average industrial wage.”
Could you give a reference for these statistics please, or even a reference to where information on which they were based was found?
WSTT .The only reference I have is experience.- As you will probably guess from my non de plume- I have lived through this period helping my father buy a house in 1959, buying one myself in 1965 and again in 1973 and 1996 and finally in 2006 (all as principal residences) so I was well aware in practice of property prices and wages during all this time.
@WSTT Perhaps the distinguised Irish economists Marie Hunt of CBRE ,or Marian Finnegan of Sherry Fitzgerald who are world experts on the Irish housing market might help.
Aahh….Will, I detect a note of cynicism in that post!
Credit where credit is due. Mark Fitzgerald MD of Sherry Fitzgerald is brother of that other distinguished Irish economist John Fitzgerald of the ESRI. If the two distinguished lady economists are unavailable try Jim”soft landing” Power.
Mark Fitzgerald and Jim are involved with Property Industry Ireland aka the Fine Gael Landlords Association.
@WB The Phoenix,sorry subscription only can’t link it,but on newsstands,has interesting angle on UORR.
It suggests that the Labour AG,Mari Whealan was somewhat inconsistent in her advice.
The commercial property cartel’s propaganda.
It’s well worth a read,Lynch and Labour had advice from the current Labour AG,before the election,remember the famous press conf. in Korkys.
This is in now way to detract or distract the attention or blame from FG,but interesting that Gilmore made the announcement.Whelan’s advice to Labour pre election should be released into the public domain.
Was it not advice from the same Whelan that forced the govt.’s U Turn.
@ JG
Remember they had possession of Gerard Hogan’s SC opinion which clearly outlined they could do this under article 43.2.2 of the constitution and there was no case for compensating landlords. This aricle is a planted propaganda piece.
I am surprised you believed it. The Fine Gael Landlords Association won the day.
@WB they only thing I believe in any more is cash,preferably US Dollars.
But it’s an interesting angle,as most articles in The Phoenix are.
There were no “winners” in UORR,as the landlords and NAMA are finding out,clauses in leases are meaningless in tenants can’t pay.
The most hideous part of it all was the false hope they generated in retailers and their employees,suppliers and families.