It was billed as the biggest ever property auction in the State by reference to the number of lots on offer – 112 – and on the day 108 were available with four withdrawn. And of the 108, a total of 96 sold for €11.4m in the auction itself, and apparently another three sold after the auction. According to my calculations, there was an 89% success rate which still places Allsop Space as No 1 in Ireland; and considering the number of lots sold and Allsop Space is now the dominant leader in Irish property auctions. The actual results from yesterday’s auction are here. This is the analysis.
Prices and declines from peak: This analysis needs a big health warning because we don’t yet have a publicly-available register of property sales prices in Ireland – the latest is that with the recent passage of the Property Services Regulation Bill, we may get a register by next June 2012 which will have a history going back two years to 2010. And because we don’t have a register of sale prices, it is difficult to estimate the declines from the Irish residential property peak which was in 2007 (when exactly depends on type of property and location). We know Liam Carroll was asking €290,000 for 1-bed apartments in his Castleforbes Square development in 2005 – two years before the peak – and yesterday 1-beds were selling for €124-130,000, a drop of 57% from 2005 prices. A buyer of a house in the Riverside estate in Oranmore who yesterday paid €92,000 at auction claimed that at peak the houses on the estate were selling for €240-280,000 so yesterday’s price would reflect a 62-67% drop, more if you factor in the reduction in stamp duty to 1% since last December 2010. My own tuppence worth is that “hammer” prices yesterday were 65-70% off peak settled prices and that prices were marginally down from the previous three auctions. The official index of mortgage transactions compiled by the CSO says that we are down 45% from peak.
Buyer interest: The Irish Times estimated that 1,600 people attended the auction yesterday and it certainly seemed the venue was packed, with overflows on stairs and ante-rooms. Allsop Space has yet to produce its analysis of catalogue downloads, viewings, domestic/foreign and cash/mortgage buyers as it has done for the first three auctions. But going by the experience of the first three auctions, you can expect 80%+ of transactions to be in cash and 90% of the buyers to be Irish.
Yields: As with declines from peak, there is a lot of judgment required in assessing yields. Apartments in Liam Carroll’s Castleforbes Square development appeared to generate prices reflecting 8-9% yields. A flat in Raheny sold at a 7% yield, as did a house in Clonee, Dublin. The Zam Zam Pizza shop with vacant apartment above it in Bundoran achieved a 20% yield but what will happen to the rent level when the lease is renewed/terminated? A unit in the Westgate Business Park likewise attracted a price which reflected a yield of 38% but apparently the tenant is paying a rent which reflects a 18% yield though again, how long will the tenancy last at that level? Flats in Wexford attracted prices reflecting 13% yields, and a flat in Ballina yielded 15% but you would have to ask what will happen to rent levels after Budget 2012 when Minister for Social Protection, Joan Burton is set to announce reductions in rent assistance level, particularly outside the capital, and you might further ask if these reductions will affect private rent levels. The most expensive property of the day on Pembroke Road in Ballsbridge sold for €630,000 reflecting a 14.6% yield. Most sales were of property with vacant possession or only partly rented.
Protests: the previous Allsop Space auction in September 2011 attracted an organised protest outside the Shelbourne hotel, with protesters angered at the reality and prospects of property being repossessed, and then sold off at these auctions; yesterday there were “several protesters” according to the Irish Independent.. According to the Irish Times there was a “low-key” protest by a group called Anti-Eviction Taskforce. Now these protests are likely to be a very sensitive issue for Allsop Space, and remember Ireland is still a country where a repossessed farm will only attract a €1 bid because of our painful history under occupation by the British, and that’s despite being an independent country for 90 years. Allsop is a British auctioning giant, and the optics of a British company selling repossessed Irish property also has the potential to wipe the shine off these auctions. Having said that, Allsop Space is at pains to point out that there is a mix of property now sold at these auctions, some repossessed and some sold under instruction of the owner – in fact Allsop Space would probably claim the auctions are no longer “distressed”. And the Allsop Space auctions are undoubtedly well-run with as much transparency as you could expect from this sales channel, and for that we have Allsop in particular to thank. In respect of repossessions, the view on here is that the Government needs to put in place a personal insolvency/bankruptcy system so that people with unbearable debts can hand over their assets and see their debts cancelled, and then get on with their lives, whilst those who are capable of repaying are allowed/required to do so. A proper insolvency regime will force banks to take a more pragmatic view – if you can declare bankruptcy and emerge blemish-free in 12 months then banks will consider long and hard before they repossess a property which will cost it 5% in insurance, maintenance in a year and will generally be sold in a distressed state (minus light fittings, kitchen, bathroom, internal doors, flooring, fireplaces, balustrades and banisters, consumer unit).
The next Allsop Space auction is scheduled to take place on 1st March 2012, with the catalogue scheduled to be made available on 4th February, 2012. If you can’t wait, then there is a large Osborne King auction in Belfast next Thursday 8th December – details here.
UPDATE: 2nd December, 2011. Commenter Dreaded_Estate has produced a most helpful spreadsheet which you can view here which compares the “hammer” price of properties on Wednesday at the Allsop Space auction, with the peak asking prices as monitored by IrishPropertyWatch.com. Robert Hoban, the Director of Auctions at Allsop Space LLP has commented that “over 30 lots had remote bidders from abroad, and 10 were successful in beating the domestic bidders. Initial surveys suggest as much as 40% of purchasers had finance arranged in one form or another”
NAMA Wine Lake 
Castleforbes’ price trends over three of this year’s auctions are shown in today’s Irish Independent.
@Donal, thanks for that and if I might quote from your Independent report today
“A surprising feature of the auction was the resilience of the market for apartments at Castleforbes Square in Dublin’s north docklands. Despite recent house price surveys showing Dublin apartment prices continuing to fall, some Castleforbes flats sold yesterday for higher prices than similar apartments in earlier auctions.
For instance, yesterday six one-bedroom apartments sold for prices ranging between €123,000 and €141,000. While such prices are less than half the 2005 peak, some are higher than the €116,000 to €129,000 which one-beds sold for last April.”
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bargain-hunters-out-in-force-as-property-auction-nets-euro114m-2950959.html
Welcome to the Repossessed homes of the Irish http://www.facebook.com/AntiEvictionTaskforce#!/photo.php?fbid=304921176197566&set=p.304921176197566&type=1&theater
Almost all the Castleforbes apartments are being purchased by one wealthy Irish residential developer in the UK. Hence the strength of the prices.
(HOUSES SOLD AT THE ALLSOP AUCTION) These houses are ‘distressed’ houses as sold and advertised whether you want to call them ‘handed over’ or ‘voluntary surrender’ it is a surrender of family homes (repossession).The people buying such property’s will have no luck in these houses they are cursed with the misfortune of those who lived,died and cried tears within the walls.Good luck to the purchaser they will need it,They were warned.The Irish People will not stand for these distressed family home sales by Britiesh Allsop. http://www.facebook.com/IrishHomeownersUnite?ref=ts#!/AntiEvictionTaskforce
How many of these lots were actually family homes? And were any of them handed over by people happy to be rid of them, and glad to have a monkey off their back? I’m sure the no doubt intelligent and level-headed Anti-Eviction Taskforce have the figures on this. In no way are they a quasi-skanger group making vague threats against people going about their lawful business.
Lot 109,not sure is Yield the correct metric to measure that sale,we may be discussing different Lot’s.
But combing the ehm ‘rent’ dividing it by sale price results in same yield cited above.
May be a ‘yank’ thing,but no rent is no rent,more a price per square foot play,or someone with tenant in pocket for upstairs.Best of all would be the tenant NOT paying rent picked it up,unlikely but fair ‘play’ to them if they did.
Click to access shed109.pdf
Ground Floor Rent is % based on receipts !
*We are informed by the Receiver that the average rent received is 3,500 per month. We understand the tenant pays rent based on a percentage of turnover. For further information please refer to the legal documentation at http://www.allsopspace.ie
First Floor NO rent !
‘Subject to a Tenancy at a rent of 12,500 per quarter. We are informed by the Receiver that rent is not being received ‘
Regarding the buyer demographics, the IT states that “Around half were cash buyers – 30 per cent less than at previous auctions.”
If it’s true that only half bought with cash that would be quite a low figure for an auction like this. Is the reservoir of of cash buyers running low? I hope no one has agreed to buy property and then can’t get their financing in place, though I suspect there’ll be someone else to take their place if so.
@Ronan people have a right to be angry,all reports are that it was an extremely SMALL and peaceful protest,in comparison to our more hot blooded neighbors.Perhaps,@Jim may not have articulated his point the best,but they have every right to peacefully protest and have a point of view.
Many Irish people, particularly those without benefit of financial education,were exploited and deliberately targeted by predatory lenders.
From the actual auction:
“However proceedings came to a brief halt when one protester stood up in front of the auctioneer and warned about the “ill will” that could affect buyers of distressed property in communities.”
From Jim on this thread: “Good luck to the purchaser they will need it,They were warned.”
That’s your “peaceful protest”, is it? Thuggery & bullying via (not so) veiled threats. They are pond life of the worst type, many of whom no doubt spent the last decade voting for FF, and now it has visited ruin on them they are out to blame “the British”. I look forward to the dissident republican contribution to this worthy debate over home repossession.
This is a pretty good country to live in if you’re having mortgage difficulties. In fact, have there been any forced repossessions in the past two years? Has there been one “eviction”? Again, I’m sure our learned friends in the Anti-Eviction Taskforce have the data on this.
Meanwhile, many a renting family get booted out of their family home, not because they didn’t pay their rent, but because the landlord wants the property for himself, or his daughter, or his niece. Or he wants to sell, or he wants to renovate…and where are the heroes of the Anti-Eviction Taskforce? Where is their sense of justice? Their moral outrage? Presumably the same place it was for the last decade, nowhere to be seen, because it only coincides with their own self-interest. The Irish homeowner certainly is a protected and sensitive species. It seems there is absolutely no justifiable circumstance in which their land can be pried from their hands. ’til death us do part.
RONAN,Your opening comments and comments show that you are only after profit,your a disgrace to your Irish ancestory.Also you have quoted me out of context later in your comments.Further more I am not a thug or do I have any connections with any Parimiatarys of any describtion.To try and demean is your choice but you Sir are a disgrace to the Irish people and your own ancestory, you are interested in nothing but profit.My commitment and Morals and comment to the Irish you will never have.You are living off the backs and the misfortune of your fellow Country Men/Women and Children that is nothing short of disgrace, to say the very least.
D.J.
An even more impressive feature of the strength of sales of Castleforbes Square apartments at yesterdays auction was the fact that all 8 apartments sold did not have an underground parking space included.
All of the Castleforbes apartments sold at the earlier Alsops auctions did have a parking place included , so yesterdays strong sales prices show definite signs that prices have not only bottomed out in this part of the Docklands but may in fact be showing signs of a recovery.
When you stand back and consider the fact that approximately 30 apartments have been sold without difficulty in Castleforbes at Alsops auctions over the last 8 months this is indeed an impressive performance. Not many , if any ,developments across the country could match that.
So, why don’t you try to sell me yours?
Where do you think the home owners will go when you profit from their misery? It all comes back to you
“if you can declare bankruptcy and emerge blemish-free in 12 months then banks will consider long and hard before they repossess a property which will cost it 5% in insurance, maintenance in a year and will generally be sold in a distressed state (minus light fittings, kitchen, bathroom, internal doors, flooring, fireplaces, balustrades and banisters, consumer unit).”
I’m trying to imagine a world where there are even fewer repossessions, and imagine how we will ever have a normal mortgage market again without accessible colateral.
NON-RECOURSE LENDING.
‘A non-recourse loan does not allow the lender to pursue anything other than collateral. For example, if you default on your non-recourse home loan, the bank can only foreclose on the home. They generally cannot take further legal actions against you. The bank is out of luck even if the sale proceeds do not repay the loan.’
http://banking.about.com/od/loans/a/recourseloan.htm
The issue is whether the house itself is good colateral when only a miniscule number of repossessions are permitted. Prudential lending into that sort of market is relatively difficult.
Non recourse loans, lender accountability, quick economic rehabilitation.
Its not rocket science.
Sending back the keys is not a crime, its a decision.
Negative equity? If there aren’t a bunch of letters from you begging for money, then it was probably the banks fault for lending.
Voila.
@All
Without trying to sound smug I had suggested about 3 years ago that average house prices would revert to where average net yields would be c7%. With more and more of these auctions it seems that using a net yield basis my 7% minimum yield prediction looks in good shape as an accurate assessment of where the housing market is trending.
I also suggested that 7% net yields would be the minimum level to which house prices would revert and the expected level could sadly be higher than the 7%. What we are now seeing is exactly as yours truly predicted and sadly this has equally dire consequences for the Central Banks PCAR stress case scenarios – as I predicted and explained to the CBI last March their numbers simply could not be correct. The PCAR document makes absolutely no reference to average market net yields and as a result the authors have somehow managed to disregard the most important aspect of risky asset market valuations known to man i.e. mean reversion.
Residential property asset prices in Ireland will mean revert and this means at the very minimum prices will exhibit a 66% fall from peak to trough (66% is the minimum expected market average fall.) The stressed CBI scenario is a PTT fall of 58%. The minimum they will be wrong by is c14% and in all probability a lot more as mean reversion does not mean prices stop falling when they reach average historical yields – far from it – it actually means prices will likely move to gross yields of 8% to 10% as we are seeing in these auction results for the average residential house.
The CBI spent €30m in computing the PCAR numbers and with the aid of nothing more than the ability to read and intpret historical data I and others suggested their numbers were badly off. It cost me significantly less than €30m by the way to know minimum house price falls will eventually be 66% when the dust finally settles.
Recent evidence suggests that 60% PTT falls represent something of a tipping point for hard pressed mortgage holders. The size of the negative equity has a disproportinate effect on mortgage defaults i.e. the relationship is not linear and 60% PTT falls for some unexplained reason could likely see defaults balloon out even further than we’re already witnessing. Watch this space no doubt for ongoing exceptional analysis.
@Ronan,my comments were based on the reporting that it was a small peaceful protest.The people who volunteer there time here(link below) may disagree with you.There have been a few discussion on this topic.
‘Due to an extraordinary high volume of contact from the public we will be giving priority to those who have legal proceedings issued against them and have a court date’
http://www.newbeginning.ie/
Linked it before.
The Depth of Negative Equity and Mortgage Default Decision
‘Our estimates show that about 80 percent of defaults in our sample are the result of income shocks combined with negative equity. However, when equity falls below -50 percent, half of the defaults are driven purely by negative equity. Therefore, our findings lend support to both the “double-trigger” theory of default and the view that mortgage borrower exercise the implicit put option when it is in their interest’
Click to access 201035pap.pdf
@KOR you need a ‘game changer’ combine that with modern BK laws, the market will be up and ….walking. Capital has no conscience,if the spreads are wide enough, enough fees involved,there will be lenders.
Everyone likes an unfair advantage,a smart lender could ‘own’ the Irish banking sector,perfectly positioned for the bounce….hold on did that not just happen at B of I?
Not a sociologist,there is no rational explanation for the level of emotional attachment to a piece of RE.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billsinger/2011/11/29/judge-rakoff-rejects-secs-contrivances-in-citigroup-settlement/
one small step in the right direction or legal mumbo jumbo?
@sf you mentioned the ‘reborn’ element,fresh start that Irish people don’t have,under current BK laws. Followed the Citi case few more out there too.
@ronan they are a ‘fringe’ group but entitled to peacefully protest,hold opinions,just as much as you are entitled to disagree with.
Quick analysis shows prices down about 70% in this latest auction, slightly more than previous auction I think.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AutgOtkznKxIdE5mVGwwSkk3dGpxTEJtcnEzZDRvSkE&output=html
And a few 80% plus drop
Greenlanes, Dunleer – 84.2% fall
http://www.irishpropertywatch.com/viewSalesPropertyHistory.php?Ext_ID=136796&Site=daft
15 John Street, Enniscorthy – 83.5% fall
http://www.irishpropertywatch.com/viewSalesPropertyHistory.php?Ext_ID=125651&Site=daft
@DE, absolutely fantastic work. Will add update to the above blogpost and link to your spreadsheet. Well done.
And what we’re talking about are the Allsop Space auction results from Wednesday this week and the peak asking prices as monitored by Irishpropertywatch.com
Put away your Excel spread sheets, yields and mean regressions. As superstitious as the Irish are all you need to sell or not sell real estate is the following. http://www.numbers4success.com/
A Life Path number is held to be all the numerals from the day, month and year of birth added together until only one remains. So, if one was born on April 3, 1977, you would add 4 3 1 9 7 7=31. Then you would add 3 1 together to get 4. An address with 4 in it would therefore be a good choice, according to this system. Some numbers are held to be “compatible” and some are held to be “incompatible”. The 4 person should avoid 3, 5, and 9.
@John Gallaher Are you deliberately ignoring my point?
Was that protester in the auction entitled to stand up and “warn” people about ill-will toward any purchaser in the communities these houses were being sold in?
Was Jim “entitled” to say “Good luck to the purchaser they will need it,They were warned.” on this blog?
Is it ok to threaten (or “warn”) people who buy at auction now, based off what might (or indeed might not) have been the history of the property?
No more non-sequiturs in reply, please.
Yes he was, anyone who bought repossesd property are vermin and deserve nothing but bad luck!
A plague on all your repossesd houses!!!
How’s that for a curse?
@Ronan,the protester-assume after that outrage the case is sub judice.
There is a long history in Ireland of cursing and curses…..Seamus here is more an expert.
Former Billoinaire’s Downfall “Caused By Fairies”
“Such superstitions are common and widely believed according to University of Ulster folklore expert Seamus MacFlionn.”
“People do genuinely believe that to do so brings bad luck. It’s part of our ancient Irish history,” he added.
http://www.drudge.com/news/150788/former-billoinaires-downfall-caused
There was a discenting view
One sceptic is Ballyconnell butcher Gerard Crowe, “It’s a load of auld rubbish. . . Simple as that,” he said.
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/former-billionaire-sean-quinns-downfall-caused-by-fairies-16081466.html#ixzz1fNcOxyoJ
@Ronan, Did you ever read John B.Keane’s “The Field”? The anti-eviction culture is buried very deeply and strongly in our psyche.
I think the incident below was earlier this year:
“Farm of 67 acres draws just €1 bid as hostility sinks auction
COLM KEENA Public Affairs Correspondent
LOCAL ANTIPATHY torpedoed an auction of 67 acres of farm land at Crossakiel, near Kells, Co Meath, yesterday.
The land was up for sale by a receiver appointed by ACCBank but it attracted one bid of just €1. Farmers who attended the auction indicated they did not want the land sold.
The auction in the Headfort Arms Hotel in Kells was organised by Pat O’Hagan of Savills Country, Molesworth Street, Dublin. The solicitor was from an IFSC-based firm, according to one farmer present who did not wish to be named.
“There was no question but that people weren’t bidding because it was being sold by the bank,” he said. “The solicitor being from the financial services centre would be very little got up in Crossakiel.”
He said about 20 people were present for the auction and that only one bid was made, for €1.
Questions asked included whether the bank had the goodwill of the owner in selling the land. The auction was told the bank had the authority to sell the land.
Receiver Kieran Wallace of KPMG was appointed by ACC to recover money due from George Beglin of Crossakiel, who lives adjacent to the land. The land was given as collateral for loans given to Mr Beglin, who was involved in property development.”
When the banks really start selling we will have more of this – especially in small rural communities. As I said, the Irish don’t do evictions any more.
@WSTT they are evicting the ‘best and brightest’ right now !
@jg; Ain’t that the truth…..I stand corrected!
Fear….. An impotent emotion, but one that the banks and NAMA play on all the time. The banks use it to get mortgagors to cough up more than they can afford by threatening eviction; NAMA use it to bully the developers into “rolling over” and submitting to their every demand and whim even though those demands may not be legitimate. But in the end the fear turns into anger, an emotion that if channelled and focused is not so impotent, because anger can topple empires.
Aristotle, a guy that knew a bit, said that “anybody can become angry – that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way – that is not within everybody’s power and is not easy”.
Most of us are pretty Sicilian when we get angry and in the end we seek revenge on those who we believe are our tormentors.
Most are still in the transition stage from fear to anger. We have some way to go yet, but the forthcoming budget will move us on. Revenge when it comes, will be sweet. Contrary to the Christian teaching, the meek do not inherit the earth.
Good luck to the protesters. Their only problem is that they are not angry enough yet – and that goes for the bond protestors also – too fearful to really protest, but at least they will soon be through the initial fear phase.
@ Ronan, “Is it ok to threaten (or “warn”) people who buy at auction now, based off what might (or indeed might not) have been the history of the property?
No more non-sequiturs in reply, please.”
Yes it is.
@WSTT fascinating show,ultimately futile but inspiring.
‘In September 1978 up to 20,000 people marched in Dublin to protest against the building of Civic Offices at Wood Quay and what they saw as the destruction of their Viking heritage. This was the climax of an epic struggle that was fought on many fronts – on the streets and in the media, in the Courts and Council Chamber, and even on the site of Wood Quay itself.’
http://www.rte.ie/tv/scannal/woodquay.html
The notorious left leaning and republican mouthpiece the Irish Times….eh NO, reported the incident as…………….
‘THE BRISK bidding and jovial atmosphere at the Allsop Space auction were interrupted when a protester heckled Allsop auctioneer Gary Murphy.
Tom McNulty, from the group calling itself the anti-eviction taskforce asked Murphy if he could guarantee that people in the room “won’t be buying ill will with their neighbours and from the people who can no longer afford to keep the property”
Robert Hoban, Allsop Space’s auction director, said he didn’t have a comment to make on the protest. “People are entitled to protest, but what we’re offering is just another method of selling this property.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2011/1201/1224308413497.html
The only time that I saw real anger being demonstrated in Ireland was the night of 2nd February 1972, when I stood outside the British Embassy in Merrion Square and watched it burn.
It was destroyed by a furious crowd of demonstrators protesting over the shooting dead of 13 people in Derry. The crowd was estimated at between 20,000 and 30,000 strong. It had been besieging the embassy building for almost three days.
The mob threw hundreds of petrol bombs, as well as stones and other missiles. Fire engines which arrived to tackle the blaze were prevented from getting through for several hours.
All windows in the front of the building were smashed, and shutters torn from their hinges. Burning Union Jacks were hung on the front of the building above symbolic coffins, placed on the embassy steps by march leaders who were allowed through the police cordon around the building.
About 20 demonstrators and police were injured, including one policeman who was seriously hurt when a gelignite bomb was used to blow out the front door of the embassy at midnight.
The ambassador and his staff had evacuated the building, leaving a just few security guards inside.
Other buildings with British connections were also attacked. One of the worst incidents was at the port of Dun Laoghaire, where a British-owned insurance office was burned down.
The British government had asked the Irish government to bring out the army to help the gardai, but the government declined for fear of making the situation worse.
Now THAT was channelled anger….. Will we reach that point? Probably not, we’re still in the fear phase.
@WSTT, didn’t the Irish government fully compensate the UK for the damage to the embassy in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid_2758000/2758163.stm
‘“The men who have led Ireland for 25 years have done evil, and they are bankrupt. They are bankrupt in policy, bankrupt in credit, bankrupt now even in words. They have nothing to propose to Ireland, no way of wisdom, no counsel of courage. When they speak they speak only untruth and blasphemy. Their utterances are no longer the utterances of men. They are the mumblings and the gibberings of lost souls.”
John W. great piece today’s IT.
@wstt/nwl apologies mobile,can’t link the festivities have commenced in NY,free booze but boorish conservation.The Euro is saved,The King Is Dead,Long Live The King !!!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1202/1224308469059.html
Figured it out the above words are Pearse’s.
You should really write for the BBC with descriptions like that!
Oh wait….
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid_2758000/2758163.stm
@WSTT
“I saw real anger being demonstrated in Ireland was the night of 2nd February 1972”
At last!!!! Somethng in common.
@NWL, Yes they did compensate them. I can’t recall the amount, but I’m sure it’s logged somewhere in the archives.
@Brian, We probably have more in common than you think! Certainly more than divides us. :-)
@WGU, They put it better than I could. They felt the emotion too. :-)
good conversation here
-embers, glowing after the destruction, kindled, all that malarky.
Sad to say, first their must be ….collapse.
Anger, well that’s just a sideshow
Whoops WGU, Finger too fast… I meant to say that the emotion the BBC and the British in Ireland felt at that time was fear. What happened in 1972 was the opposite to what is happening now.
Then the establishment and political powers feared the people – to the extent that they were afraid to deploy the army. Today the boot is on the other foot.
The people are timid and meek. And the banks, the establishment and our political masters at home and in Europe, by their policies of austerity and eviction, have no concern for the suffering caused to those who are fearful and can’t cope and are unfortunate enough to be trapped in Ireland.
@SF visiting the napa valley over the hols,French Laundry better be as good as they say !
WGU is that you contribution,try reading the Irish papers,you can normally read it here first,Bloomberg,Reuters or WSJ.NWL quite civil of you,appreciated your equine pun on other post.
Eh…. did you read the link?
WSTT “quoted” the BBC article and “forgot” the link.
Uncool netequitte.
Not sure why you extrapolate from that some kind of stupid nationalistic/green jersey call-to-arms.
If you want that, have a look for WSTTs constant referencing of “The Field” as justification for developers being merely “men of the soil” who were led astray by those Johnny Foreigners and their fancy ways.
@ JG
Get in touch if you have any questions about visiting Northern California, I’ve been here a long time
Backpackers lunch among the Coastal Redwoods beats French Laundry hands down, any day. Tree hugging optional.
@WGU, That is not why I quote “The Field”. It was quoted in reference to those “uncool carpetbaggers” who think that it is acceptable to take advantage of others misfortunes without having the courtesy or morality to check that a purchase of a property is acceptable to the people that it affects the most – and that isn’t the receiver or the bank.
@WSTT – “The Field” could be simply said to be Keane’s reworking of Marcel Pagnol’s “Jean De Florette”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Pagnol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Florette
I haven’t seen too many people lately depicting the apartment dwellers in Paris as barely evolved muck savages, ready to club to death anyone who looks at them askance.
The theme of “The Field” is universal, and seeking to portray some Canny McSavvy as genetically predisposed to “the land” and inherently prone to violence to defend his duplex investment (with parking!) in Clonsilla is spurious to say the least.
Cannies, and their heroes – the developers – need to suck it up and stop crying like babies for the State to make them whole again.
@SF will indeed,pit stop in Humboldt County.
WGU ‘tone deaf’ or suffering from amusia.
@WGU Ah, so John B. Keane was plagiarising too! You misunderstand the point of the reference. It is that it is distinctly “uncool” to make money on others misfortunes. I am unaware of anyone that has asked the State to make them whole again – other than the banks. I am a believer of living by the sword AND dying by it. However, I am also a believer in morality and that those people who are innocent victims of this credit bubble should not be exploited and should be afforded the same consideration that their tormentors (the banks) received from the State.
@WGU,
Actually, there’s no similarity between “The Field” and “Jean de Florette”. Two entirely different plots and different messages.
Ray purchased a dojo from a big flameout company,my old stomping grounds.Large cast of characters up there,we placed bucks,for ‘offshore’ investors daily.Odd little place.”caddy’ is the developer on ray’s new gaff.
‘And late last year Whitehall raised the ire of other clients — large pension and money management funds including Fidelity Investments and the California Public Employees Retirement System, known as Calpers. It did so by using its influence to raise the return on its investment in Cadillac Fairview, a bankrupt Canadian real estate company, at the expense of the funds, which held significant stakes.’
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/22/business/in-some-cases-goldman-sachs-is-pitted-against-its-own-clients.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Thinking about it, we should really stick to what we are good at – writing, poetry, arguing – and stay away from finance and business. Hand it over to the Germans. We are too begrudging of success, love to see someone fail, kick them when they are down and write them off. We just don’t have the US mentality that’s required in order to cope with success and failure. Better at singing mournful songs about emigration or dying for Ireland.
@WSTT – You’d be surprised at the similarities if you dig a bit deeper!
As for Irish begrudgery – are you for real?
You couldn’t move for the Cannies and their hagiography of their Helicopter Heroes during the bubble.
The only bile expelled was for the saps who hadn’t got on “de ladder” – and it wasn’t relating to one propped against a gable wall.
The Irish did gaudy celebrations of success of its “heroes” as well/badly as any American. The heroes themselves flew the Irish flag in the face of gracious hosts and were cheered by the ignorant Irish public for such chutzpah. And then the chickens came home to roost…
The politicians threw Joe Public in front of the bus in a vain effort to save their supposed heroes. The public still thinks its “heroes” are worthy of their exalted status – and will continue to do so as long as the servile media in this country continues to hide the mendacity that prevailed in the bubble.
When people stop marching in praise of Quinn, and his ilk, and start to realise how the politicians, the bankers and the Helicopter Heroes all conspired to hide and then shove all the self-inflicted, gombeen losses on the taxpayer – then you’ll see proper begrudgery.
Bugredgery? How many are in jail? Are you for real?
@WGU, Quinn employed a lot of people in an area that knew nothing but emigration, pig smuggling and B-Specials. He made a bad commercial decision to buy (more like gamble) on CFDs in Anglo. He lost – big deal! That’s his problem.
I don’t see that he conspired to lay his losses off on the taxpayer. I do see that our gombeen politicians did that, more in ignorance than anything else, and thought that it was a great “cute hoor’ stroke – aided and abetted I might add by some of our so called celebrity economists.
The fact that the politicians, bankers and developers are not in jail, reflects on the inability of the law to prove fraud or malfeasance. If they could, presumably they would.
I think that there is enough generic bile against politicians, bankers and developers in your post that it is worth remembering that the most valuable things are not helicopters, property or bonds but rather empathy, mercy and love.
‘Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather’
WGU why are you throwing Sean Quinn under your proverbial bus.
He was outplayed,taken,check your pockets after the meeting,types,need a shower,London based,NY money,possibly holders of Anglo bonds too.
“Indeed, if you aren’t certain that you understand and can value your business far better than Mr. Market, you don’t belong in the game. As they say in poker, “If you’ve been in the game 30 minutes and you don’t know who the patsy is, you’re the patsy.”
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/07/09/poker-patsy/
@WSTT drop the gamble sh..,he was under NO obligation to reveal his position,aided and abetted by NY money,who were the ‘WINNERS’ on that.
El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha…
Tilting at windmills,small minded,insular,you are PERSECUTING the LOSERS,grow a pair of ba..,go after the winners.
@WSTT- Quinn was fined )(the Irish for “should have gone to jail”) in 2008 for using Quinn Insurance funds to pay off his losses in other parts of the group i.e. his Anglo losses. He, and his family, also turned to Anglo to illegally share his losses and are now turning around and claiming they don’t own this money as it was illegal!!!
I’m sure all those people in Cavan would have got work anyway – maybe just not as serfs.
As for no malfeasance being proved – are you sure? Just because there is no desire to prosecute doesn’t mean there is no evidence to proceed on. The bould David Drumm was plainly stating that the Golden Circle (Jerk) was completely illegal but also completely signed off on by the Minister of Finance (and by extension the Taoiseach), the Governor of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator. All it needs is someone with a pai of balls…
As for bile – meh. I just want to clear the deadwood and leave the fertile ground clear for healthy new growth.
If that means people go to jail, banks go bust and auctions clear the backlog then so be it.
Others seem wedded to keeping the old, dead, empty husks in place.
For the gombeens, people should look forward, not back, and Allsops should be run out of town for daring to try and clear some brush.
Me, I find Allsops approach a sign of hope – but I’m not part of the cabal who would rather cling to the decrepit, dying, rotten trees.
[…] by Allsop Negative equity protection may distort market Developer jailed over Achill construction Allsop Space fourth auction ? analysis time for taxpayers to use their market power Rents predicted to rise as more hold off buying Tax […]
The Quinn family is a lot like the bank robber who sued Smith & Wesson because his pistol misfired.
Thanks for some interesting stats about buyer profiles. Has anyone heard feedback from buyers from the previous 2 auctions? Having tracked 2 properties in the Sept auction, i’m not surprised the majority of buyers fall into the ‘cash’ and ‘investor’ categories. Like other auction situations, there appears to be a take it or leave it attitude in terms of accepting the paperwork that is offered. Surely, there’s ample time to make these assets more saleable by ensuring reasonable title, planning, prior charges documents are made available before the auction.
Even first time buyers who can raise finance would struggle to get a mort. based on the title documents being made available for certain lots. Some of the “bargain” sale prices suggest that each property has its own story in terms of the risks being taken by the buyer. The info quality threshold for the PRAI is likely to be much higher than the Registry of Deeds. Auctions won’t help move property until Joe Soap has greater transparency, without the need to outlay their own legal and survey costs every time they spot a potential home.
Nobody deserves to get stuck with a property they can’t register or be sold a pup by a bank/receiver that didn’t have first call on the funds. Is it a minefield best left to risk takers?
As regards the morality of bidding, its doesn’t take much digging to get property’s background story i.e. whether its being sold ‘on behalf’ of a large scale speculator/developer or individual/business.