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NAMAed John Fleming set to emerge from bankruptcy today, financially “newborn”

November 10, 2011 by namawinelake

Given the range of greetings cards that are available these days for practically any event, it’s surprising that there isn’t a whole genre devoted to bankruptcy – “Sorry to hear..” in the early days, “Nil illegitimi carborundum” as the process gets into full flow and “Congratulations – welcome back to financial freedom” when the bankruptcy comes to an end. Of course in Ireland, we have a tiny number of bankruptcies – just 30 in 2010, which is slightly higher than, though still consistent with, previous years – so the market for such greetings cards wouldn’t be huge, though that may be set to change with what appears to be a renewed commitment by the current Government to reform the archaic and largely impractical bankruptcy laws.

However in the neighbouring UK, the bankruptcy business is thriving; in fact it’s so successful that some Irish folks are applying for bankruptcy there. And who can blame them – compared to Ireland the UK bankruptcy process is quick, cheap and seemingly efficient. The UK has a number of processes available depending on the financial condition of the person facing financial challenges – the main ones are bankruptcy, debt relief orders (DROs) where you have small debts of less than GBP15k and practically no assets, and individual voluntary arrangements (IVAs) which are big business in the UK and mean that you work with your creditors for three years to pay them back as much as you can and they agree to write off the remainder. By comparison, the approach to bankruptcy in Ireland is still draconian, even taking into account the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 which reduced the bankruptcy period from 12 years to a conditional five years.

Last year, NAMAed developer John Fleming (pictured here) applied to the UK courts for bankruptcy, having previously established residency and commercial connections, and during the past 12 months he has been subjected to the process, but all being well he will have awoken this morning as a financial “new born” – his creditors should no longer have any hold over him, and whatever wealth and income he generates from today is his, and his alone. For details of what UK bankruptcy involves, take a look here at the UK government’s own Insolvency Service.

There’s nothing to stop the 61-year old unleashing his entrepreneurial skills and generating substantial wealth on the back of his skills, experience and contacts and his former creditors will have no legal call on that wealth. Seems painless? Hardly, the process is rigorous, John has reversed transfers including a transfer of assets to a trust in 2009 and his assets have been repossessed; it is not clear how many times he has had to meet with the bankruptcy officials. But he is married to Noreen who has presumably wealth in her own right, he keeps pension entitlements – it is not clear how wealthy the wife is, but I think it’s fair to say that John won’t be going hungry or homeless in the marriage anytime soon. It should be said that if the bankruptcy official considers John to have acted “dishonestly, or is blameworthy in some other way” it may impose restrictions on John for 2-15 years which means he has to declare his bankruptcy if getting credit and he might be disqualified from being a company director or take part in the “promotion, formation or management” of a company without getting permission from the court. But assuming John has been forthcoming, he should not be affected by any of that.

John seems to be generally regarded as a “decent skin” in the property development world and has been responsible for large-scale residential development in Cork (much of which has been on the market for some time), hotel development in Ireland including the Fota Island resort but he also has had fingers in other pies including alternative energy production in the US. You can view the Fleming bankruptcy legal documentation (partial) at thestory.ie here; this includes a list of assets and liabilities.

Of course it shouldn’t be forgotten that even though John is set to emerge from bankruptcy today, that creditors, including NAMA and NAMA banks which we mostly own, are likely to still be nursing losses; large losses – creditors were said to have been owed over €1bn but it not clear to what extent these debts have been satisfied; given the collapse in property prices in Ireland, I think it’s fair to say the losses will be substantial. It seems from the bankruptcy documentation that it is only the banks, Homebond and a private landlord who rented a property in the UK to the Flemings, that have lost out as unsecured creditors. It was the banks, and now NAMA, that will seemingly shoulder the greatest losses. So, not a day for celebration all-round, but it seems that an entrepreneur has done the capitalist thing, faced up to his losses, accepted the consequences in the UK, and can now seemingly get on with life.

I wonder if others are set to follow in John’s footsteps…

UPDATE: 30th March, 2012.  Barry O’Halloran in the Irish Times today reports that NAMA has applied to the British courts for a so-called “income purchase order” which would allow the Agency to garnish any income that John earns in the three years following his discharge from bankruptcy. It is not totally clear why NAMA would be entitled to such an order but the report says that such orders are available to creditors who were not originally part of the bankruptcy arrangement. This is curious because both Anglo and AIB and their receivers were part of the arrangement and you might have expected that the banks’ assignment of loans to NAMA would have assigned their involvement also. Anyway, the Irish Times reports that NAMA made the application last year before John was discharged from bankruptcy (though elsewhere the report says NAMA made the application this week), that there was a hearing this week and that the case has been adjourned for 10 weeks.

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Posted in Banks, Developers, Hotels, Irish economy, NAMA, Non-Irish property, Politics | 47 Comments

47 Responses

  1. on November 10, 2011 at 1:20 pm Neil Callanan

    And if Nama bankrupts him in Ireland…


    • on November 10, 2011 at 1:27 pm namawinelake

      @Neil, interesting question but I would have said that was unlikely. I remember poor Judge Peter Kelly trying to get to grips with David Drumm’s pre-emptive strike in filing for bankruptcy in the US last November 2010, and it was agreed apparently that the US bankruptcy took precedence over Anglo’s actions here in Ireland because chronologically David Drumm got his strike in before Anglo could seek bankruptcy here.

      But it’s an interesting question, if you’ve been bankrupted in one EU country (or a country whose bankruptcy is seemingly recognised by Ireland) can you be made bankrupt again for the same debts?


  2. on November 10, 2011 at 1:24 pm John Gallaher

    Ne bis in idem ?


  3. on November 10, 2011 at 1:32 pm John Gallaher

    is it a CRIME in ireland to do a few bad real estate deals !

    ‘The ne bis in idem rule is a general legal principle, related to the principle of the authority of the thing judged and of individual freedom. This principle is recognised in all legal systems which are designed to respect fundamental rights.’

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/libe/elsj/charter/art50/default_en.htm


  4. on November 10, 2011 at 1:46 pm Brian Flanagan

    @John

    “is it a CRIME in ireland to do a few bad real estate deals !”

    No, you win some and lose some. That is life and biz. However, here in Ireland these bad deals have cost the taxpayer about €50 billion and, along with a huge deficit on public spending, have wrecked the country for a decade. The equivalent in the US would be about US$4.5 trillion. IANAL but I would have thought that we are looking at reckless trading by some major borrowers and lenders which is a crime.


  5. on November 10, 2011 at 1:55 pm John Gallaher

    @BF the ‘regulators’ have an lot to answer for too,’light touch’ or ‘soft touch’.
    RE developers by and larger are ‘dreamers’ or ‘visionaries’ does not make them BAD or criminals.The government re-elected by the people turned a blind eye to every ‘warning signal’ of an overheated property market.


    • on November 10, 2011 at 2:08 pm Brian Flanagan

      @John
      Agree about the ‘regulators’. Maybe some RE developers in the US can be viewed as dreamers and visionaries but those descriptions would not fit some Irish developers who could be better described as ____ and _____. Fill in the blanks.

      I don’t think that people in the US would be too happy paying about US$15,000 a head to bailout a tiny number of dreamers and visionaries and their funding cronies.


  6. on November 10, 2011 at 2:09 pm John Gallaher

    @Brian for example Anglo just ‘lost’ 1.9 BILLION for the Irish taxpayer in selling its US loan book.They entertained lavishly,spent money like drunken sailors and did every bad deal possible.The ‘scary’ this was they actually believed they were ‘good’.Lending on RE was their primary business they were incompetent but ‘criminally so’ doubt it.


    • on November 10, 2011 at 2:19 pm Brian Flanagan

      @John
      You might glance at my letter published in the Irish Times on 16th September: http://www.planware.org/briansblog/2011/09/white-collar-crime-and-inquiries.html

      Have to cut and run to a meeting now.


  7. on November 10, 2011 at 2:16 pm John Gallaher

    @Brian assuming you want to ‘rebuild’ your economy how much time energy resources are to be spent in the ‘past’.The money is gone.
    You could do a lot worse than have John Fleming back building,Grehans too.
    Of course there was/is a few scoundrels but some of the RE developers were actually very good in fact world class.


  8. on November 10, 2011 at 2:32 pm What Goes Up...

    Time for a re-brand?

    http://www.japlandic.com/2011/11/fleeing-construction.html


  9. on November 10, 2011 at 2:44 pm John Gallaher

    @wgu John made a business decision,a smart one at that.
    His alternatives were waste the next few years getting messed around by NAMA.


    • on November 10, 2011 at 3:26 pm What Goes Up...

      No quibble with that.

      Just don’t expect me to call him an entrepreneur.

      Anyone can run up debts of a €1Billion.

      Paying it back is what separates the men from the boys.


  10. on November 10, 2011 at 3:24 pm john gallaher

    ‘His companies had an annual turnover of more than €200 million, and directly or indirectly employed in the region of 2,000 people.’

    http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=3020


  11. on November 10, 2011 at 3:33 pm john gallaher

    @wgu with the ‘culture’ in Ireland no chance of that !
    In many cases/situations the best people to complete and finish off the projects,are the original developers.They have lived, breathed,sweated the deal know all the details and personally signed loan documents.
    John is a smart guy he can easily find a JV partner to back him again,Grehans too.
    Ireland’s loss chasing these guys out of the country.


    • on November 10, 2011 at 3:51 pm What Goes Up...

      He’s 61 now.

      How much is it worth to any investor to build a 10 -2 20 year business relationship with a failed, bankrupt, pensionable developer?

      The smart money should be looking for the modern day John Fleming.


  12. on November 10, 2011 at 3:41 pm jr

    @neil.
    my understanding is that No, he cannot be made bankrupt here as well. Something to do with European law, in that if you have declared yourself ‘B’ in one jurisdiction and go through that jurisdictions procedures they are recognised across Europe. If there was a prior ‘B’ proceedings in a different country then the action taken in that country cannot be usurped by going ‘B’ in another, i.e. if you were being made ‘B’ in the RoI by a bank etc. and decided to skip to the UK and started your ‘B’ proceedings there- it can be stopped and you get called back to the RoI. My Non-legal background understanding I stress.
    Pensions are protected in the UK process, hence all the elderly Germans going ‘B’ in Kent (allegedly).


  13. on November 10, 2011 at 3:47 pm john gallaher

    @wgu your argument is a bit ad hominem regarding John Flemming.He made payroll for 2,000 Irish people and has every right to be considered a entrepreneur.
    Started with nothing and is a world class developer, how many FINAL plans has NAMA approved ?


    • on November 10, 2011 at 4:13 pm What Goes Up...

      He’s up there with titans like Seánnie Fitz, Seán Quinn, Liam Carroll et al!


  14. on November 10, 2011 at 3:58 pm john gallaher

    @wgu the ‘smart money’ in NY/London would JV with John in a new york minute.
    Recapitalize him and get him back working,employing people.You really expect him on his knees with NAMA.He probably would not have hired most people working there !


    • on November 10, 2011 at 4:17 pm What Goes Up...

      I would love to see him and all the Celtic Tigers “entrepreneurs” meeting their debts in full.

      If the choice is between him being on his knees or me being forced to shoulder him and his debts – then I know which one I’d choose.


      • on November 10, 2011 at 4:46 pm John GALLAHER

        We can agree to disagree JF is nor was he the ‘worst’.
        Good luck John any of the ‘smart money’ in NY would take a meeting.


  15. on November 10, 2011 at 6:04 pm who_shot_the_tiger

    @Neil, I’m disappointed. You’re an investigative journalist – and a good one. You should know the answer to that question.

    In relation to John Fleming. He did not flee. He faced up to his lot under the capitalist system. He did not ask for WGU or anyone else to assume his liabilities. They should have been shouldered by him as far as he was able, the banks who lent him the money, their shareholders and bondholders. However, the politicians and our civil servants decided that the capitalist way was not their way and spread the liabilities to you. No developer or debtor did that, Not Sean Fleming, not Noel Smyth, not the Grehans…..

    He is debt free. One of the new wealthy. Good luck to him.

    BTW, they wrote Tony Ryan off too, because of his age. Boy, were they ever wrong. But it is the begrudging Irish way. Sad.


    • on November 10, 2011 at 7:01 pm BaNAMA Republic

      There is an old phrase in English politics ‘Beware an old man in a hurry’. JF is a good builder. NAMA has not one person in its direct employ that knows how to put brick on brick. For a real estate business this is simply terrifying.

      @WGU and @Brian Flan I agree what happened is terrible but WSTT is right, the developers were not behind the decision to socialise the losses on property loans. What has happened has happened, it should be remembered but we MUST look forward and begin the long tough process of re-building the Irish economy.

      People who bring employment and value added jobs should be welcomed including some of the same developers in NAMA.

      Would we crucify every man or woman that tried and failed in business?


      • on November 10, 2011 at 7:34 pm John GALLAHER

        Nah create NAMA hold endless pointless meetings,make no decisions.
        Best of all have the meetings in a Treasury building!
        Who made that idiotic decision to rent space there.


      • on November 10, 2011 at 8:23 pm Brian Flanagan

        @BNR
        “the developers were not behind the decision to socialise the losses on property loans”.

        No, but they and the banksters were the people who created the tragedy in the first instance. If both parties had been less greedy (and better regulated), the banks would still be in private ownership, developers would be much wealthier than they are now and the deficit would be much lower. No, it is not hindsight – it never made sense to be increasing both gearing and borrowings in the middle of a ponzi-type bubble.

        Given that the developers are being comforted by Nama and the banksters at the State-owned (I was going to say State-controlled) banks are waving two fingers at the Government, what is to stop the same people doing the same thing again. Where is the “moral hazard” or is that just for the little people.

        As regards business failure, it is the country’s citizens and tens of thousands of businesses who have been crucified by the a tiny cabal of borrowers, banksters and politicians.


  16. on November 10, 2011 at 6:26 pm jr

    then again…

    “Just don’t expect me to call him an Banker.
    Anyone could lend €1Billion of someone else’s money.
    Getting it re-payed is what separates the Bankers from the _ankers.”

    It was indeed a joyful tango that everyone was dancin’ to – problem was that everyone was wearing a pretty red frock but nobody had knickers on.


  17. on November 10, 2011 at 6:46 pm who_shot_the_tiger

    @jr, The bankers were like the hookers in Amsterdam, showing their wares to anyone who gave them a side-glance. Money was a commodity to be sold. Quite literally, I could have got a loan for my cat if I had applied in its name.

    No knickers? I dunno, it’s fairly obvious who is being screwed now – and it’s not the bankers. But I like the picture you paint. Sounds like the teen disco at a well known south Dublin rugby club!


  18. on November 10, 2011 at 7:54 pm What Goes Up...

    The bank guarantee in September 2008 was the banker bailout.

    NAMA in December 2009 was the developer bailout.

    They are two different things.

    The “systemics” in the banks got in first, then the “entrepreneurs” from the tent got in.

    And then the money was gone.

    Now those kids who need kidney transplants and those CF patients can rattle their cans around town collecting loose change and we will tell them some of the gentlemen sitting on the board for their new hospital will only be paying back what they can to some of the other gentleman on some other boards of very noble causes.

    And the “entrepreneurs” will bemoan the bankers and the politicians who brought all this on – and possibly hold €1000 gala charity dinners for the poor.

    And we will all drown in the flood of crocodile tears.


  19. on November 10, 2011 at 8:14 pm john gallaher

    Some people will be familiar with canary wharf which was built by a Toronto family The Reichmans.They controlled Olympia and York which famously flamed out in the early 90’s with 20 BILLION of debt.

    ‘What followed was arguably the worst humiliation in Canadian business history. Mr. Reichmann’s bankers walked away from a global bailout of what was then the world’s largest real estate company. Olympia & York Developments was carved up by creditors.’
    “Well, real estate does have its booms and busts,”

    He rebuilt the fortune created employment !

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/a-bittersweet-end-to-reichmanns-canary-wharf-saga/article1297623/


  20. on November 10, 2011 at 8:34 pm john gallaher

    @Brian who is going to rebuilt the country employ people ?
    JF if he was in US would be finalizing a Opportunity Fund,to purchase at discounted prices assets from NAMA.
    They are going to trade to whom ?
    GE Capital,Blackstone,Lone Star or Blackrock.
    Select the ‘best and brightest’ re-capitalise them have the ‘STATE’ as partner.
    This ‘playbook’ has been written executed before many times.


  21. on November 10, 2011 at 9:26 pm who_shot_the_tiger

    @WGU,
    Agree about the banker bailout.
    I don’t know that the Grehans, Liam Carroll, Bernard McNamara, McInerneys, the Elliotts etc……. or even John Fleming would agree with you that NAMA was the developer bailout.

    The money went which was borrowed from the banks, was given to those who disposed of assets in 2004 to 2007 at inflated prices. As it was borrowed money, when price reality was re-established, the loss which was the banks’ and the borrowers’ loss, was by diktat from the EU and our government passed to the taxpayer, and the cash given back to the bondholders.

    Give me a break about the health service. It became bloated on the taxes shelled-out by young couples overpaying for new homes (40% plus of the price was paid in opportunistic taxes to help pay the health service personnel their inflated salaries and cover their double jobbing) – We have overpaid doctors, consultants, and nurses compared to the rest of Europe. We would be able to afford your service if they too took a haircut. But it doesn’t suit our government. They like to ration access to save money, while the salaries of vested interests (the consultants) are kept at elevated levels. What other country allows doctors to be paid €250,000 per annum out of the public purse, while at the same time giving them free rein to simultaneously run a private practice? Do you really believe that your consultant actually stays in the theatre to carry out your operation, when the anesthetist puts you out? He’s gone… either to his golf club or private practice.

    It’s time to put the Kleenex away, whether or not the tears are crocodile. Crying is an impotent activity.


    • on November 10, 2011 at 9:43 pm What Goes Up...

      @WSTT

      Harry seems to think it’s a bailout:
      https://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/%E2%80%9Cin-four-years-time-%E2%80%A6-we%E2%80%99ll-have-paid-back-everyone-and-we%E2%80%99ll-be-laughing%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%93-harry-crosbie-and-nama/

      Here’s the video:

      Join Harry on Planet Crosbie where he encourages everyone to dig deep for the new childrens hospital whilst also telling people to pick up the tab for his “enterprise” whilst they’re at it.

      Funny how Harry can’t see how his losses could probably build a hospital-and-a-half on it’s own.

      I know who I think is the most bloated whale from the bubble-era.

      People like Harry – and John – should really just keep their head down and retire to the sun in Alicante.

      Leave the serious business to the next generation.

      This one has made enough of a mess of it.


  22. on November 10, 2011 at 9:36 pm who_shot_the_tiger

    @john gallaher; Those few with any commercial sense and enough ambition are doing exactly as you suggest – or at the very least a version of it, because of the legislation and the mindset that does not allow a NAMA inmate the opportunity to purchase assets from the agency.

    It takes a very small mind to limit the market in the circumstances that the country is in. Exclude your most likely buyers? Great minds…… no wonder we are in a mess.


  23. on November 10, 2011 at 9:45 pm john gallaher

    NAMA will go down as one of the greatest wasted opportunities in the history of the state.It should have the mind and skill set of ANY competent RE Opportunity Fund.The asset base while a mixed bag NOW was an incredible basis to work off.

    Have they even set up a ‘intern program’ yet with any of the major universities colleges?

    There is no ‘enemy’ just some indebted over leveraged borrowers,big deal !!
    Work with them JV some deals get the market MOVING.


  24. on November 10, 2011 at 10:14 pm john gallaher

    Harry’s comments were no more stupid that these!!

    Seriously WTF was he thinking……

    Regular readers will know my view on Mulchahy, attending conferences in fu.. WALES,discussing the causes of London rioting.

    http://www.resievent.com/page.cfm/Action=ConfSpeaker/SpeakerID=24


  25. on November 10, 2011 at 10:21 pm john gallaher

    And if/when FOI comes in for NAMA lets have a quick look at the travel expenses you guys paid for this trip !!!

    @NWL no idea how to link older posts.

    We gave up in the 80′s and emigrated in no small part due to personalities like this .. It’s a 70 BIlLION RE company do you read about senior people at GE Capital,Blackrock or Fairfax with their trousers down like this … can you guys step your game up a little !!

    Let’s leave it to the jocular john mulcahy….

    In a discussion on the causes and effects of recent rioting in London, Mulcahy jocosely suggested that one of the contributory factors was flat-screen TVs – because they are so portable. As he pointed out, there was no way looters would have been able to lug so many of the much heavier older TV sets out of the shops. Food for thought indeed.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2011/1020/1224306120179.html


  26. on November 11, 2011 at 12:26 am Jake Watts

    I find it beyond ironic that the general tone here is that the show is over. The bad guys got their collective comeuppance and the lowly taxpayers got stuck with the tab. Now, it is just a question of bouncing along the bottom for a few years and then we can have a whole new financial beginning. Kind of like coming out of bankruptcy in the UK.

    If you believe that you are bigger fool than all the bank loan officers and managers in Ireland combined. The magnitude of the malinvestment in real estate will never be settled in our time. It will burn through to core of the earth like the China Syndrome for decades. Read your history, this is no “capitalist” cyclical recession. Take a good look at Greece and what has happened to their standard of living. And, this is just the beginning. Add to this debacle inflated food and energy prices and you have all the makings of a Biblical event.

    Clever to paint the developers as keen entrepreneurs who just happened to get caught in one those cycles; no, it was not cleverness. It was blind raging greed and a level of selfishness found only among the hyenas.

    Check back in a couple of years and see how things are going.


  27. on November 11, 2011 at 2:09 am who_shot_the_tiger

    @WGU, Harry is a trucker not a developer. He just happened to have a site in the docks. A bit like the lucky sperm syndrome. I don’t rate his comments on property, the construction industry, NAMA or the economy. However, RTE love to publicise garbage as long as it raises the ratings.

    @Brian Flanagan, Hi Brian :-) Just FYI, there was not “a tiny cabal of borrowers”. Far from it – half the country with any “auld patch of ground” wanted to become a “property developer”. If they didn’t have a side garden they could build on they went to Anglo or AIB, who committed funds to them and several others to purchase whatever crazy property was being auctioned or tendered with “development potential”.

    And it was not just the “wanna be” developers. it was the accountants, lawyers, doctors, barristers etc. encouraged by the well known financial advisors who, having arranged provision for a loan (from the same Anglo or AIB) to enable them to participate in their property funds, had no clue what they were doing – except they knew that they were getting big fees for promoting anything that would take bricks and mortar.

    These people chased the market up, fueled by the banks and cheerled by the politicians. The real developers have survived in their industry, enjoying in the main, a modest success since the late 80s. Most of these real developers were surprisingly persuaded, believed the hype and foolishly tried to compete in this grossly overheated bazaar. A few, who ploughed the contrarian furrow, stuck with their own residual valuations and despite having had to take write-downs as the market over-corrects, will survive. The shirt on their back might be in tatters, but they will survive, despite the banks “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”.

    Yes, the future is for the younger generation, because this one has completely screwed up. But it was not entirely the fault of a tiny cabal of borrowers. If it was limited to that, we would not be in such deep trouble.


    • on November 11, 2011 at 8:27 am Brian Flanagan

      Good Morning WSTT
      As you say “it was not entirely the fault of a tiny cabal of borrowers” in your excellent review which largely agree with.

      However, in talking about a tiny cabal, I was thinking of the top 100 or so borrowers and their banksters – the significant few as distinct from the trivial many – who set the pace, gamed the boom by ensuring that the next deal was always bigger than the last one (this had to be the case to keep the prices rising) and played a key role (knowingly or not) in sucking all the smaller fish (smaller developers, professionals and amateurs) into the pond.


  28. on November 11, 2011 at 4:04 am John Gallaher

    Illegitimum non carborundum—ipso facto!

    @JW Lehman filled in September 2008 and was largest filling in history involving over 600 BILLION in assets.

    The RE department was run by Mark Walsh and some of the decisions made by his department contributed significantly.

    Where is Mark now ?

    ‘Mark Walsh, onetime head of Lehman’s Global Real Estate Group, which underwrote Tishman Speyer’s ultimately disastrous $22.2 billion purchase of Archstone-Smith’s apartment portfolio, among other dicey investments—and who was profiled in 2008 in The Observer —has teamed up with some former colleagues to buy the management contract for Lehman Holding Company’s real estate funds.’

    http://www.observer.com/2010/real-estate/mark-walsh-former-lehman-real-estate-financier-buys-old-real-estate-funds

    http://www.observer.com/2008/real-estate/mark-walsh-lehmans-unluckiest-gambler


  29. on November 11, 2011 at 11:07 am jr

    @WGU
    the bank guarantee in September 2008 was the banker bailout.
    NAMA in December 2009 was the developer bailout.

    You could argue the merits of both of these statements, I won’t, but it would be hard to argue that the bailout came from the sovereign state i.e. left the state on the hook for it.
    We appear to have seamlessly moved from a situation where we used to (unknowingly? bigger fools us?) ‘vote’ for the people who bribed us best with our own money to a situation where we in fact (totally unknowingly) ‘voted’ for the people who bribed us with our childern’s and grand-childern’s money.

    Is the real global situation that currently exists the breakdown of the sovereign debt market: it’s not the interest that is killing it, it is the fact it was borrowed in the first place. Back in our ‘glory’ tiger days we borrow a Billion a year to put into the NPRF (courtesy of the NTMA), this self same NPRF fund has been spent and re-spent as if it was ‘saved’ money by politicians (of all parties, I don’t recall any of them telling us a lot of it was borrowed) over the last 3 years.

    It would be an interesting ‘investigative articles’ to chart the sovereign bonds of the Irish state since they were first used in terms of the amounts, the coupon and more importantly what they were used for… Ardnacrusha, rural electrification, Guinness investing in an nitrogen bubbles plant etc. up to and including Sept ’08 & Dec ’09. It would be a great social-economic-political undertaking.


    • on November 11, 2011 at 12:51 pm What Goes Up...

      NAMA was all about burying the bodies – political, banking and “entrepreneurial”.

      How do you do that?

      Introduce a firewall and watch all and sundry walk away shaking their heads in amazement at how it could all turn out so badly.

      The same people who should be shaking in their pink boots in the showers of Portlaoise Prison.

      Quite a collection of politicians, bankers and “businessmen” should be answering awkward questions in court at this stage.

      NAMA made all that go away.

      The classic example of this is Phil Hogan and his stands on DDDA and planning in general:

      Here’s a whole thread on DDDA – and the first is de bould Phil, in opposition, calling for an investigation to DDDA and corrupt practices:
      http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24921

      Now in power, Phil decides that it should be all in-house, nice-and-tidy like and nary a peep from him since on the DDDA:
      http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?p=517823#p517823

      If you want to see the whole unnatural alliance of banker-politician-developer in full view then look at the DDDA – it’s all there in plain sight.

      I’m sure WSTT will come along and tell me that McNamara wasn’t really a developer he was just a glorified tarmacadam salesman or something – or that Quinlan was a failed accountant or something – or that Seánnie and Lars and Donal were on the board out of the goodness of his heart and gave their time selflessly – or that Ahern and Cowen were merely striving for inner-city redevelopment and feeding starving orphans or something.

      Someone should really help “Bock The Robber” to see the true nature of these bastions of virtue:
      http://bocktherobber.com/2010/05/dublin-docklands-development-authority-bertie-ahern

      And what’s all this to do with Johnny Fleeing?

      He’ll be kicking himself for taking the UK route if he sees NAMA deciding that those inside the tent pissing out are more desirable to those outside the tent.

      Mightn’t be his smartest move yet.


  30. on November 11, 2011 at 12:59 pm ObsessiveMathsFreak

    RELATED NEWS: Sean Quinn Declared Bankrupt in Northern Ireland.

    Laughter and chinking champagne glasses heard as far south as Drogheda.


  31. on November 11, 2011 at 1:33 pm who_shot_the_tiger

    @WGU,

    “I’m sure WSTT will come along and tell me that McNamara wasn’t really a developer he was just a glorified tarmacadam salesman or something – or that Quinlan was a failed accountant or something – or that Seánnie and Lars and Donal were on the board out of the goodness of his heart and gave their time selflessly – or that Ahern and Cowen were merely striving for inner-city redevelopment and feeding starving orphans or something.”

    No, I won’t. :-)

    I do agree, however, that a lot of people should be answering questions in court. You would not believe some of the stuff that has been covered up. Where are our investigative journalists when they are needed?


  32. on November 11, 2011 at 1:36 pm who_shot_the_tiger

    @OMF, Not quite to Drogheda, but as far south as Castlebellingham at least.


  33. on November 11, 2011 at 1:44 pm john gallaher

    @OMF the Re Developers did not operate in splendid isolation!
    Should the entire legal profession be abolished because of Michael Lynn!

    They way things are going,non domiciled companies such as GE Capital which purchased at a discount loans of B. of I. will ‘cherry pick’ the better assets off NAMA.

    No news on John Fleming seeking eviction orders for down on their luck Irish families,who were victims of predatory lending.
    GE Cap has actively pursued naive Irish citizens for their homes.

    ‘A second possession order was granted to GE Capital Woodchester for a property in Dundalk, Co Louth’

    If you prefer the likes of GE Capital than john Fleming to purchase at a DISCOUNT the NAMA loans so be it.They may be busy repossessing homes and evicting Irish families!

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/14/uk-bankofireland-disposals-idUKTRE79D57G20111014
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0712/1224300558563.html



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