On Thursday 19th January, 2012 two Irish ministers, Brendan Howlin and Michael Noonan held a news conference in Dublin to mark the successful conclusion of the latest bailout troika review mission. Minister Noonan made a gaffe by referring to the scourge of Irish emigration as a lifestyle choice, though the Minister claimed his remarks were taken out of context. By popular demand, here is the full transcript of the question and answer so that you can judge yourself. Of more concern on here was that the Minister – no doubt with a desire to talk up the prospects for the country – made a mistake by claiming unemployment had fallen by more than it actually has (see below).
Mark Simpson from the BBC, can I ask you two questions about emigration. I assume that you factor in some sort of projection in terms of emigration, in terms of your overall financial figures, if you have any latest projections, could you share them with us? And secondly, what is your overall attitude to young people here who, rather than putting on the Green Jersey, are putting on the Australian Jersey in many cases.
Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan: Well, we have the Central Statistics Office who monitor these issues and they come up in the statistics. They’re not specifically factored into the budgetary process. What is factored in is employment and unemployment. And employment has remained quite high, we still have 1.8m people working in Ireland. I remember in the 1980s when times were quite bad, employment dropped down to 940, almost half so the situation is quite different . In December, unemployment steadied, actually for the first time in three years the Live Register went down, went down by about 3,000, the last time that happened I think was in 2007, and we hope it wasn’t just a one month event, that there’s a stabilisation. [According to the CSO, the seasonally adjusted Live Register for November 2011 was 446,500 which fell by 3,200 to 443,200 in December 2011. But if the Minister is referring to the monthly fall of 3,200 then it was only in December 2010 that the Live Register was 446,000 and it fell by 4,300 to 441,700 in January 2011 and then rose]
There’s always young people coming and going from Ireland, some of them are emigrants in the traditional sense, others simply, it’s a small island and they want to get off the island, a lot of the people that go to Australia, it’s not being driven by unemployment at all, it’s driven by a desire to see another part of the world. I have five adult children, three of them living and working abroad, I don’t think any of the three would be described as an emigrant, it’s a free choice of lifestyle and what they wanted to do with their lives. There’s a lot of families like that. Now there are other people being driven abroad alright. Now what has happened is that the collapse of the building industry has created a lot of forced emigration. The immediate effect of that was that over about a 15-month period, 100,000 people with building skills lost their jobs. And they’ve lost their jobs with absolutely no hope of for the bulk of them being re-employed in the building industry in Ireland. Because we’re not going back to a building and construction industry that’s 20% of GDP. And we can’t hold down that hope. And in Irelandwe’re trying to re-skill them, going into different categories.
But quite a number of them have emigrated and quite a lot of them are in Australia, some of them are in the UK, some in Germany, Young men in particular with skills in the building industry. It’s a very identifiable tranche of Irish people.
It’s not about putting on the Green Jersey and taking off the Green Jersey, that’s life in modern Ireland, to do their best and I hope that they’re successful abroad. What we have to make sure is, that people have the best possible education right up to third level so when they go, they’re employed as young professionals in their country of destination rather than the traditional image of Irish people from the 1950s.
UPDATE: 29th January, 2012. You might be interested in a 2-part feature on here last year which examined emigration in Ireland, particularly in an historical context – part one is here and part two is here. The following table took some time to research and I think it shows the historical scourge of emigration in stark terms.
To the extent that some wise folk know better than to have faith in Ireland to provide for them and their families, I agree. But with the caveat, Noonan and practically all other Irish politicians are pathetic, frightened and lost, and to express their opinions on the matter is hypocritical.
Lost, as it happens, is the name of today’s poem.
http://wp.me/28tG9
Mr. Noonan should be made to wear a Green Jersey with the letters BBB+ embossed across the front. On the back, it should read “outlook negative”.
http://www.businessinsider.com/fitch-goes-on-rampage-cuts-spain-italy-and-belgium-2012-1
Noonan and other members of the ‘possessor’ class have form in playing down their role in Irish emigration.
In his book, ‘Ireland, 1912-1985: Politics & Society’ (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ireland-1912-1985-Politics-Joseph-Lee/dp/0521377412), Joseph Lee details how emigration has maintained the status quo in Ireland since the foundation of the State. And how the likes of Michael Noonan and his ilk have blamed the following at various times:
* 1930′s cinema – putting romantic notions in young women’s heads;
* peasants wanting to get above their station – “there’s no economic want in Ireland at the present time”
* “a greatly increased population can be supported only at the expense of a reduced standard of living”
* etc.
Here’s a paragraph from Lee describing emigration and the possessor class in the 40s and 50s that equally applies to today’s situation:
“The mandarins, the bankers and the gombeen men may as well have lived in a different country from their victims. However blandly they might rationalise the experience that relieved the pressure on themselves to improve their performance, however opportunistically they might blame the victims for their plight, however frequently the emigrants might return as travel conditions improved, indeed however individually liberating emigration may in fact have proven (in itself, a sad reflection on the ‘imponderable values and liberties of our traditional society’), the emigration figures for the forties and fifties stand as a permanent commentary on the collective calibre of the possessing class.”
He continued:
“In one respect only did they display true talent. So effectively did they master the techniques of indoctrination that many of their victims would continue to cherish the values responsible for their own plight.”
Noonan is simply trotting out a well-established ‘nothing-to-do-with-me’ line.
@ Kieran, An unfortunate choice of academic to quote? Prof. Lee scattered off to the US once he reached the age of 60 and could draw down his “paltry” pension from UCC.
Was he forced out of the country by the ” mandarins, the bankers and the gombeen men may as well have lived in a different country from their victims”?
@Niall Always the messenger, never the message.
Kieran, My point is that reasons for (e)migration are much varied. While Dr. Lee was describing the position in the 1950s when the vast majority of the migrants were unqualified, openings for those without qualifications abroad are now minimal.
The Lithuanian Statistics Office have estimated that there was net emigration to Ireland in 2010 of 12,000. Now as such migrants cannot get SW payments in Ireland under the habitual abode rule, they must be working. This does raise questions about migratory trends, not least why are they getting work and Irish people not taking up the positions.
I don’t want to play down the awfulness of forced emigration or the current unemployment position, see for example Michael Taft’s analysis of vacancies. http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2012/01/media-outlets-are-reporting-a-new-crackdown-on-the-unemployed-apparently-the-department-of-social-protection-intends-to-int.html
While Dr. Lee’s book was an interesting analysis and his occasional contributions when a member of the Seanad were quite powerful, I feel the rhetoric ran away with the logic from time to time.
As a poet sf ca writer might appreciate the most famed of the Irish emigrants’ poems:
O, Father dear, I often hear you talk of Erin’s Isle,
Her valleys green, her lofty scene, her mountains rude and wild;
You say it was a pleasant place wherein a prince might dwell,
Why have you then forsaken her, the reason to me tell?
My son, I loved our native land with energy and pride
Until a blight fell on the land and sheep and cattle died,
The rents and taxes were to pay, I could not them redeem,
And that’s the cruel reason why I left Old Skibbereen.
It’s well I do remember on a bleak November’s day,
The landlord and his agent came to drive us all away;
He set my house on fire with his demon yellow spleen
And that’s another reason why I left Old Skibbereen.
Your mother, too, God rest her soul, lay on the snowy ground,
She fainted in her anguish of the desolation round.
She never rose, but went her way from life to death’s long dream,
And found a quiet grave, my boy, in dear old Skibbereen.
It’s well I do remember the year of forty-eight,
When we arose with Erin’s boys to fight against our fate;
I was hunted through the mountains as a traitor to the Queen,
And that’s another reason that I left Old Skibbereen.
Oh father dear, the day will come when vengeance loud will call
And we’ll arise with Erin’s boys and rally one and all,
I’ll be be man to lead the van, beneath our flag of green,
And loud and high we’ll raise the cry,” Revenge for Skibbereen!”
Your mother, too, God rest her soul, lay on the snowy ground,
She fainted in her anguish of the desolation round.
She never rose, but went her way from life to death’s long dream,
And found a quiet grave, my boy, in dear old Skibbereen.
Remember when FF talked about the Nation. You just knew they had a very small number within their officer corps in mind. The laugh nowadays, FG don’t have to attempt the pretence of inclusion. As for Labour, they no longer pretend they are anything more than the civil service party
@NWL
re Noonan’s statement.
A flawed analysis in order to arrive at a favoured conclusion.
“The immediate effect of that was that over about a 15-month period, 100,000 people with building skills lost their jobs. And they’ve lost their jobs with absolutely no hope of for the bulk of them being re-employed in the building industry in Ireland.”
1. That is nonsense. There is a housing need of approx 100,000 public houses in Ireland.
http://www.workingnotes.ie/index.php/item/social-vulnerability-in-a-divided-housing-system
2. The State spends approx €500 million each year on subsidies to private landlords to house people most of whom probably are in the housing ‘need’ category above.
3. There are approx 100,000 unemployed building workers in Ireland, in receipt of State assistance.
4. There are 122,000 approx unfinished houses in approx 2800 housing estates throughout the country.
5. The marginal cost of finishing these houses would be very small considering the incremental labour cost would be only approx 50% of normal labour cost.
6. Finishing 10,000 per annum would employ approx 30,000 people ( 3 man years per house), cost less than 1 billion per annum (net of current unemployment cost) . Figures 3 people at 40000= 120,000 labour plus 40,000 material= 160,000 less 3 X 20000=60,000 current unemployment subsidies= Net 100,000 per house to completion.
7. 10,000 State houses at a current rent subsidy of a low 7000 per annum, would save the State approx 70 million per annum in rental subsidy.
Conclusion:
It is preferable to subsidise landlords and the existing property industry and keep building workers idle than to employ these building workers to finish houses and cut the subsidies to landlords. The landlords then will be able to continue to pay the banks.
That is the policy. Destroy the State and the people in it but save the banks “at all costs”.
Its not funny. They mean the ” at all costs” bit.
@JR, You are being generous with your figures Joseph. Currently, you can build a 3 bedroomed house for €85,000 in hard cost terms (pure building cost) from start to finish on a prepared site. And “Yes”, I agree with you there is no commercial or creative thinking in terms of job creation in our government or indeed within the civil service. We produce teachers and lawyers and irrationally believe that they should be elected leaders.
In one of his unfettered moments after a few jars, PJ Mara said that “all political careers end in failure”. A bon mot that Messrs. Noonan, Gilmore and Kenny are well on the way to proving correct once again.
The only question that Noonan needs to be asked , was why this mass outbreak of wanderlust coincided with the destruction of the economy in 2008. Did the Irish wanderlust dissapear during the bubble. why are we even dignified this raimeas with debate. Noonan has shown himself to be the clown , which deep down, we always knew he was. We have a Minister of Finance who talkes s–t about unemeployment when 14% are on the dole.
Nothing changes. I recall seeing soemwhere a quote from Dev around 1952 to the effect that the exodus to Britain was about foolish young people looking for excitement, and nothing to do with 20 years of Dev-onomics
even the word “choice” can be ambiguous.
– sf ca writer
http://wp.me/s28tG9-choice
yet again everyone rabbits on about this old fool but not one person has put one idea foward to turn the tide of self destruction the irish people do every 20 years, education of our young and send them abroad