Back in October 2011 there was a report of a solitary squatter occupying property in Tullamore which the Irish Independent claimed was in NAMA. The NAMA link was tenuous but it was interesting that a judge in Tullamore District Court allowed the squatter to remain in the property, when it became apparent that no damage was being done to the vacant house on the Church Hill Demesne estate in the town; indeed, according to the squatter several improvements had been made. The estate has not appeared on the NAMA foreclosure list and the developer of the estatr had not previously been associated with NAMA, and the view on here was that it was probably not a NAMA development at all.
Yesterday, a group – difficult to know how you would characterise them, squatters or protesters – gained access to an office building in Corkcity centre, Stapleton House on Oliver Plunkett Street. There is a blog which is apparently associated with the group and describes the occupation. Apparently the group was provided with keys and undisclosed other “details” and are now in situ in the building which is pictured below. Confusingly, it has a Bowen banner on display, and Bowen is a company that is in NAMA, but it seems that the building is owned by a completely unrelated company, Padlake Limited.
It’s a 25,000 sq ft six-storey modern retail/office building in central Cork, close to the quays. It was apparently empty, though estate agent Sherry FitzGerald is advertising the property to rent on DAFT. What would it fetch if fully rented? Probably around €400,000 per annum or about €1,000 per day would be the estimate here – Sherry FitzGerald reported last April 2011 that “third generation Cork city centre” offices were commanding €230-270 per sq metre (€22-26 psf). The building was developed by Padlake Limited which is associated with developer Joe O’Donovan. A cinema site in Kent was reportedly sold last year by property receivers appointed to Joe’s company, Rydell Properties Limited, acting for NAMA which seems good enough evidence to suggest that Joe is in NAMA. Apparently NAMA is not commenting on whether or not this specific building in Cork city is subject to a NAMA loan but NAMA says that in the first instance, it would be the developer or receiver who was responsible for the security of their property. The property is not apparently on the NAMA foreclosure list, so if it is a building subject to a NAMA loan, then it would seem it is Joe O’Donovan’s responsibility to ensure it is secured. I have not been able to check to see if NAMA has registered any charge against the building at the Land Registry as it has done with a range of Irish property over the past year.
The O’Donovans – Howard and Joe – are probably best known for the development of the Wilton shopping centre in Cork.
The protesters/squatters are understood to be planning to use the currently empty building for “the empowerment and enlivening of the communities of Cork” This type of action might become more commonplace in a country in economic turmoil, with over 300,000 unemployed and almost 450,000 on the Live Register and where there is a surfeit of vacant property, both residential and commercial. Most protests inIrelandat present are small and low-key but you can’t help but notice what appears to be an increasing incidence of the word “protest” in news reporting.
UPDATE: 25th January, 2012. There have been a couple of developments in this story. Padlake Limited, the company that had owned the office/retail development at Oliver Plunkett Street had been struck off at the Company Registration Office. But it was restored last week on 19th January 2012 when according to the CRO the company submitted outstanding returns and late filing fees (see the company record extract below) The second development is the apparent legal action initiated by Padlake Limited against the occupiers. There is no record yet of the application on the Court Service system, however it is understood the application was made on 20th January 2012. The owner of Padlake Limited, Joe O’Donovan is a NAMA developer though it remains unclear if this property is subject to a NAMA loan, but that is certainly a suggestion from press reporting. The question for NAMA is if this IS a company with NAMA loans, why was it allowed to remain dissolved, a status which would have prevented it taking legal action to protect its property rights. NAMA had no comment on the matter.
UPDATE: 30th January, 2012. The apparent owner of the building, Padlake Limited, has obtained an injunction today at Cork Circuit Court which effectively evicts the protesters. The judge refused permission to protesters to allow the landlord’s application to the courts to go to a full trial. The landlord claimed that a padlock had been broken to gain access to the building. A director of the landlord, Barry Doyle said that he had gone to the building in the company of Gardai on 3rd January to seek to have the protesters leave. It remains unclear if the building is subject to a NAMA loan, though it does seem the building was bought in 2006 by Padlake Limited with a loan from Anglo.
Pretty clear these are ‘protesters’ rather than squatters. This video provides their rationale in some detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoNNd-UfVfY&list=UUbvc8OrVLVwKzIpVSk4EwUA&index=1&feature=plcp
@ec, many thanks, a very interesting video, well worth watching.
No Problems. Just FYI the protest ‘culture’ that this is coming out of – that being Occupy Cork, Galway, Dublin, Belfast etc – lives very much on Facebook: Search for ‘Cork City Centre: Community Resource Center’. Far more activity there than on the blog you linked to.
Have to say that your headline is imo a little tendentious. In the absence of any meaningful demand for commercial office space NAMA or whoever else can’t be said to be losing anything.
@ec, with respect to the headline, the last Sherry FiztGerald report I read for Cork commercial property – linked in the above blogpost – suggested that Cork city centre was an attractive destination for business, and certainly the guide rental rates were tasty, especially when compared with central Dublin. The headline was selected so as to extend the debate on the occupation of the building.
Hi NWL. I am going to try to dig up where I read it earlier today – protesters stating the fact that this particular building has been empty for a number of years. That to me (layman as I am wrt to property markets) would suggest no demand for it. I do appreciate you are being provocative to further the debate.
There is a lot more vacant property out there ! & a lot of people upset about activities of elites in this country so go figure ??
“Is NAMA losing €1,000 per day from the occupation of a premises in Cork?”
Are you kidding me?
How much is NAMA costing us for freak sake. This is just the beginning of #OccupyNama
@NWL
To say NAMA is losing money on an occupied building is not a good argument and I wonder if you meant it that way.
I for one fully support the occupation of NAMA’ed buildings in a community centered way.
I understand this is outside your standards of impartiality.
Having studied this situation for a couple of years, as it spirals out of control and Ireland, abused and robbed, takes it lying down, I wonder why it took so long for protest.
The whole world agrees that Ireland is being screwed, yet a few hundred rich guys and their dopey politicians have the country in a tight grip in the place other nationalities have gonads.
If you don’t stop the abusers, others will line up to follow their example, after all Ireland will take it lying down wont they?
Very strange to suggest that NAMA is losing 1,000 euro a day because of the occupation of the building.
If NAMA is losing 1,000 euros a day today, it was also losing 1,000 euros a day last week, and the week before that, and the week before that.
Stapleton House has been empty and showed up on the commerical property sites around May 2010, so it’s already cost NAMA around 610,000 euro before the occupiers moved in.
We can also do similar calculations for every other NAMA building that’s currently empty.
How many billions is NAMA costing us while the buildings remain empty?
Three months ago NAMA told us that the rezoned land it has under its control will never be developed, in all likelihood.
How many billions in euro has that cost us?
How much is NAMA costing us every day it continues to exist?
It seems to me you’ve picked a side here, namawinelake.
Hope the company you’re siding with are worth it.
@Conor, welcome to commenting on the blog. In terms of picking sides, isn’t that what George W Bush insisted we do in 2001 – “you’re either with us or with the terrorists”. Which made things very difficult for those who naturally support the US but didn’t want rendition flights and enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding (or “toca” as they called it during the Spanish Inquisition) or who later felt that the war in Iraq was unjust.
And then we had our own “sider”, Bertie who famously said “sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don’t know how people who engage in that don’t commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something” though he later apologised for the suicide suggestion.
I cite both examples to illustrate the black-and-white, pick one side or the other, insistence of some people, and I don’t think it’s helpful to a constructive debate.
On here there tends to be balance in the blogposts, and as mentioned in this blogpost down towards the bottom with the photograph of the “needs” of the Occupy Dame Street protesters,
“Having met the protesters on Dame Street and outside The Four Courts, I’d have to say these are well-meaning people, but it seems the protest is a drop in the ocean to turn the tide.”
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011/12/26/2011-in-pictures/
Turning specifically to the occupation of the commercial premises on Oliver Plunkett Street, what will the occupation achieve:
1. A pop-up charity Café inspired by local restaurnateur Seamus O’Connell, voluntarily run by the young and old, bridging the generation gap.
[But what happens to Mrs Miggins Pie and Mash cafe around the corner where she sells a cup of chai for €1.50. Will the pop-up cafe sell it for 50c because it doesn't have to pay rent? How much will a steak and chips cost? Will this cafe put struggling competing cafes out of business?]
2. An alternative music school and recording space.
[A school? So those seeking music lessons can go there instead of other music teachers. What facilities does the building have to soundproof itself from neighbouring residences?]
3. A health, healing and nutrition space run voluntarily by experts in their fields.
[More "spaces" but fine. What exactly is this? A health shop selling what? ginseng tablets? Again competing with who?]
4. A library and bookshop
[A library to compete with the local library. But libraries are for social good so no-one can really complain but how do people think they will get a mass of books which people will want to borrow. A bookshop? Competing with Easons, but without the rent?]
5. Free public internet access
[Again great that it is free. But where are the PCs? And who will provide the line? And again what do you say to local internet providers in cafes who pay rent for their space?]
6. Open spaces for training and educational purposes and skill sharing
[Again sounds great though I am still unsure about this term "space"]
7. Home of the ‘Let’s Get Together’ foundation, offering free counselling and suicide prevention services.
[Free counselling? From accredited counsellors who can identify and know how to deal with the serious issues? Suicide is a problem in Ireland of course, though remember other countries have far higher suicide rates. But if you talk to the Samaritans, these people are trained to identify and deal with serious problems. And they can distinguish someone having a bad few days and someone who is a real suicide risk.]
8. Community Creche
[So there will be approved (or Garda checked) people looking after children which is much needed. But what about other creche operators who pay for their premises or who are barely keeping life and limb together by caring for children in their home. And how will infants be able to have any nap time with a recording studio and music lessons being given around them?]
The above is not designed to be negative, but we need to grow up in this country, and be able to have grown-up debates and allow respectful challenging of positions and accept that not everything is black-and-white.
Would you be more positive about the protests if it had been stated that the building would straightforwardly be used as a space to facilitate young precarious workers and non workers in their ongoing attempt to resist the wholesale destruction of their possibility of a future in their own city?
Imo the grown ups are basically pulling up the drawbridges and abandoning the young people of the country by treating them as excess to requirements.
I FULLY support young people taking/creating non-commercial social spaces for themselves in this country at present – be they public squares or unused buildings. The one resource that might ameliorate the lack of employment and lack of money they and many others are experiencing is NOT being used in any kind of socially useful way. Instead it is STILL being treated as a fetish despite the fetishisation of property being at the heart of the crisis.
@ec, sorry you’ve lost me
“Would you be more positive about the protests if it had been stated that the building would straightforwardly be used as a space to facilitate young precarious workers and non workers in their ongoing attempt to resist the wholesale destruction of their possibility of a future in their own city?”
I honestly don’t know what that means. I know what “cafe” means, and I know it entails food safety regulations, licences (liquor for example) and it normally entails rent and local authority rates. And whether it’s organic or just serves veal butties, it is likely to impact upon neighbouring businesses.
On the positive side, the issue of empty buildings is being highlighted which will probably throw light on unrealistic prices. Also as long as the occupiers are in situ, they are not emigrating, and who knows perhaps the association and socialisation might lead to businesses or initiatives that might help support communities.
I am not familiar with “social spaces” as described outside of youth clubs (years ago) and clubs/gyms/bars in more recent times.
Oh and I also fully agree with http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/is-nama-losing-e1000-per-day-from-the-occupation-of-a-premises-in-cork/#comment-17416 having had direct experience of the way in which occupied social centres in Italy operate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_center#Italy
@namawinelake:
I take it that as you wrote the comment at 5.455pm in the day you weren’t drunk when you wrote it – what a pity that it just reads that way.
You suggested that NAMA was losing money on the back of the occupation of the building.
I pointed out that it’s been empty since at least May 2010.
I asked you how much money was it losing before the occupation, and you replied with some comments about the occupation and the rules of ‘competition’.
Are you being serious here?
Have you any idea as to what is going on with regard to the occupation of the building, the philosophy and ethos behind it?
Ugh. I don’t know.
@Conor, first you suggest that I have taken sides and now that I might be writing comments whilst under the influence?
Firstly, I don’t even know if the property is subject to a loan in NAMA. Bowen the builder is a NAMA company, and Joe O’Donovan has also been involved with NAMA, but the company that developed the property Padlake Limited, appears to have been dissolved last Feb 2011 and shows an address at “C/O HINCHION & CO. CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS, ABTRAN/PREMIER BUILDING, CORK BUSINESS & TECHNOLOGY PARK, MODEL FARM ROAD, CORK.”
Secondly, I don’t know very much about the building and will take your word that it has been vacant since May 2010 (at least). Was it in an incomplete state and has it since been finished? When was it put on the market by DTZ Sherry FitzGerald (DAFT says the advertisement was last modified yesterday 4/1/2012 which doesn’t help much)? Were there legal problems as to ownership which might have prevented it being rented before now?
Thirdly, whatever about previous losses and it’s only a notional loss if the building was empty but was available for rent, if some prospective tenant turns up at DTZ today to rent the property, presumably they can’t because it is being occupied, so a notional loss can become a real loss.
And lastly, whatever about “philosophy”, I studied what the group apparently said was its plans for the building, and drew attention to the likelihood that some of the activities looked like business (cafe for example) and asked how it might affect neighbouring cafes. I also drew attention to what might become specific issues with noise or unregulated counselling for example.
I have spoken to the Occupy Dublin protesters and I think I understand their position, but just because someone makes a public spirited protest against something, that shouldn’t mean they don’t get challenged, even by some who you suggest have taken sides or might be drunk!
@conor
NWL is by far the most impartial, objective, bloghost on planet earth. I think he might even be famous as such.So lets see how this discussion plays out.
I support both of you guys for doing more than millions of Euros worth of politics can do. You seem to be on the same side from where i watch.
What will bring NAMA down is the truth. NWL is providing it.
@Conor
Totally agree with sfca. NWL is IMHO very fair and balanced on his/her coverage and opinions as well as being the “blog of record” on Nama.
Theres some information on that company Padlock available here. You might know this stuff already, might not so I thought I should throw it up. http://www.solocheck.ie/FreeIrishCompanyReport?companyNumber=399472&companyName=PADLAKE+LIMITED
@sf ca writer; “The pen is mightier than the sword.” And thanks to NWL, this blog has proven that again .. and again…..and again over the past 18 months. No other commentator comes close.
@wstt
he even lets me get all philosophical whenever its foggy here.
I do sense a need for a change in tone, from all commentators, media, and pundits, toward something more aggressive in 2012.
But we said that last year didn’t we?
Yea, as we get closer to the bone with cuts and tax increases and as more and more of our young people leave, I expect (hope) to see calls for a more strident amd militant approach to our crisis; to those who through incompetence and/or greed caused it; and to the “punishments” being inflcted by the EU/ECB/IMF. It is hard to credit (a) that the entire savings arising from Budget 2012 will (more or less) is being used to pay off Anglo bondholders and (b) that about a quarter of all income tax will, for years to come, be used to pay interest on the promissary notes.
Oh Look. Isn’t this interesting. An article which starts out with a fictional wave of Ghost Estate occupations in Ireland and which is published JUST after the Cork Occupation becomes visible and which is from a ‘security correspondent’ type working out of Dublin. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jan/03/ireland-squatters-occupy-homes-nama
It appears this building is the real estate equivalent of the Vita Cortex company. Legally the building and company are separate from the companies and loans directly held by Nama. In reality, all were controlled by the same persons or group and can probably all be considered as such when Nama comes looking for money (if it ever does).
I think this incident is one of great moment. Both Nama and the government could find themselves in trouble here.
Firstly, given its less than categorical statements, I suspect Nama has been blindsided by this issue and doesn’t yet know, or want to reveal, whether it controls the building or to what extent it controls the building. There is probably a mix of very real–and not very acceptable–confusion on Nama’s part, as well as a dose of the agencies characteristic equivocation in response to queries. Nama could come away with a lot of egg on its face here, but more importantly the agencies response to this needs to be carefully considered.
Carefully indeed, because the next main actor caught out here is the government, and this is where this occupation becomes quite serious. As I’ve argued before, as a result of its many failures on the justice front (esp. regarding the banks), the government has lost considerable moral authority. The Treasa Tracey case showed that the government had lost the moral authority to jail 65 year old ladies over arguments on their land.
Now the question is: Does the Government have the moral authority to evict occupy-protesters from a derelict Nama building?
This is a critical question. If the government has none, and it evicts the protesters, how much more moral authority will it lose? If it allows the protesters to remain, how many other such occupations can the country expect, particularly in the many empty offices in Dublin?
And even if the government has enough moral authority, and chooses to evict based upon it, what will the protesters next actions be? (presuming they do not fade quietly into history)
This is a serious issue and the government and Nama have no-one to blame but themselves. They have left buildings and estate lie fallow, squeezed tenants with UORRs, abandoned the unemployed and raided personal savings and pensions to pay for unpunished misdeeds of banks et al.
Indeed Nama and Government policy has been to reward failure, and deny both equity and justice. History tells us that you cannot run a state on such policies forever; and unfortunately history also tells us what tends to happen when you try to. I would hope that a few protesters in a derelict building is as far as things have to go in Ireland.
@OMF You get to the heart of things there.
IMO the government have already shown that they have no appetite for dealing with occupy style actions in Ireland. ‘Occupy’ camps have remained in public places in Cork Galway and Dublin since Mid October with absolutely NO challenge whatsoever from the State.
That lack of appetite imo comes from two sources.
1. is the fact that they understand that in terms of matters financial which these protests reference heavily they have lost all moral authority and 2. is the fact that repressive measures in early stages of Occupy movements abroad led to sudden quite massive growth in support for those targeted.
From the experience of spending a lot of time at the Central Bank protest I know for a fact that there is IMMENSE passive support for that camp. I very much believe occupations of NAMA buildings will also enjoy that support. I think any state clampdown on such activities will only serve to speed up this kind of activity.
Anyone got a list of ghost hotels handy? LOL.
@OMF +1
“If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.” John F Kennedy
Have to say that NWL is one of the most informative and Non Biased Blog posters I have ever come across,At least the Fast Majority of the Posters/Contributors on here have a clue as to what they are talking about.
there will be a critical moment when this protest either becomes linked forever to “occupy”, or it becomes something related to and only to NAMA and Ireland.
“Occupy”is more than most people realize with a history going back before it’s supposed start.
I am aware of at least one building occupied (for the homeless) in SF mission long before the word recession appeared.
Occupy is not something I think this protest should align itself too.
It’s a long story, and as it started here, the “occupy” brand for want of a better word is full of gruely bits and dodgy characters, despite the good bits.
Try a NAMA specific protest name, that’s my advice.
Have a contest for the name. Get people talking.
Isn’t “Occupy” something different altogether?
Think #occupynama has already won the competition. Occupy in London has also begun to have satellite occupations of vacant buildings – including a court and a bank AFAIK.
@ ec
I think that is to lose a really good opportunity to brand this very specific solution to an emotional issue the whole country cares about. NAMA.
There is “Occupy Oklahoma” no doubt, and to me this takes the spotlight ‘away’ from the unique nature of NAMA’s abuse of Irish taxpayers.
Occupy has been around and will stick around.
NAMA in particular is special.
When I think “Occupy” I think dead body found in Oakland port.
isn’t this about NAMA specifically? You have a global audience, that’s an opportunity.
@sf ca
Maybe ‘Corkupy’.!!
Speaking of squatting, what ever happened to the man who squatted in a Nama house in Tullamore. I wouldn’t advise letting this issue remain unresolved for that long.
NAMA was too busy with high profile sales that were career enhancing (eg Claridges in London ..etc) than to be arsed about an empty office building in Cork. The penny (yes, penny) still has not yet dropped with NAMA. NAMA and the country would be far better off renting all properties at absolute bottom prices than leaving them empty.
There are several uses the Sate could put this building to but that might upset Fat-Cat landlords who are still coining it at State expense, despite their own companies being NAMAed.
A list of premises leased by the State, cost not disclosed, but rented on to mainly State agencies for €10.7 million annually is linked below. Surely some of these could be rehoused in Cork.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/07/05/00057.asp
@JR
“70. Deputy Jonathan O’Brien asked the Minister for Finance if he will provide a list of the revenue gained by the State from buildings leased by the State to either private sector or public sector tenants which are currently subject to upward only rent reviews. [18591/11]
Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Brian Hayes): The Office of Public Works (OPW) has 94 leases where non-OPW parties fund rent. As will be seen from the following tables, virtually all the parties to these leases are State bodies and agencies. Based on current indicative information, this lease stock involves’
Does anyone know if the rent that NAMA pays to Treasury Holdings for the NAMA building is given back to NAMA to pay back some of the loans/losses that NAMA has taken over from Treasury holdings. Daft question probably, please don’t blind me with science a simple yes or no will do.
As regards the OPW and leases, The fact that OPW signed upward only leases on behalf of the taxpayer in renting offices from landlords begs the question which is always put to retailers – Why did you sign the contract when these clauses were optional? So why did the state sign these contracts? Were the civil servants incompetent or were they bought or were they doing what they were told by politicians? Of course once the state signed these leases they no longer were optional but standard. And so to do business in Ireland in the last thirty years you had to agree to this clause in the lease. So the state were culpable, they had the muscle to say no, but once they agreed, the system was entrenched and private landlords, pension trusts and developers were on to a one way bet – upwards only for thirty five years. The Incorporated Law Society of Ireland and The Society of Chartered Surveyors, the professionals who should have flagged the problem, stood back and took the big fees. This was bad enough but once it was realised that the rent review system could be easily manipulated by fixing a high rent in the area before the review date BINGO rents double and trebled even before the celtic tiger hit. The result is that we do not have a lease law system In Ireland but a system of extortion.
For the NAMA to be ‘losing’ money they would have to have a had in line a company or individual intending to or interested in renting the building. As that is not the case NAMA’s loss is that they have not properly utilized their ghost estates and are misappropriating the funds of the people.
In repsonse to the question of whether this Camps actions can be truly linked the Occupy movement, it most certainly can. The outline and and frustrations of every camp around the world is common and grounded in a shared frustration: misappropriation of the people’s money to bail out the losses of private banks who do not share their private profits. How each camp addresses this issue is and should be specific to their local area. While the issue is universal how it must be addressed is individual due to variations in local government, policy and how that issue has effected that community specifically. I would not expect Occupy North Pole to carry on the same way Occupy Wall Street or Occupy Cork or Occupy Oakland, etc… would.
Fair play lads! I am so proud of you all and wish I could still be there in Cork with you, working to liberate the nation!
~Alisa Rose Santa Cruz, CA
“occupy” has credibility issues.
Occupy Wall Street? Seriously?
If you have shoes and can find Wall Street you are part of the 1 %, part of the problem. Same for Dublin, London or Karq (cork)
Do these people not realize there are 5 billion hungry (mostly children). Call me a hypocrite but at least I realize that California ( Santa Cruz no less) is every bit as vulgarly capitalist as Wall Street and is most certainly in the 1% richest places.
So “occupy some rational thinking and honesty about the planet” is my suggestion.
Otherwise, you are a talented poet. ( bit of a dark side?)
Sequoias for ever.
@despero NO…..why just NAMA,NTMA is also paying them rent.
According to page 55 Opera CMBS,FAS was paying over 3 MILLION a year.
It actually depends on what ‘pocket’ the building is in,with these guys who knows,its not in the Opera deal,dont have the REO asset list to hand.If its part of REO then they are NOT servicing debt so the thats your answer,but FEES rank ahead of debt service specifically if owed by REO to Treasury !
They have to produce a report shortly,perhaps that will be more opportune time to “break it all down”!
NWL will do a post/page when there is ‘news’ he always does.
“One of the Group’s first projects, the Treasury Building set new standards for office developments in Dublin. Still regarded as one of the best office spaces in the city, tenants include UDT (Woodchester), Elan Management, NAMA, EDS Corporation and National Treasury Management Agency. Total size is 11,471 sq.m.”
http://www.treasuryholdings.com/property_portfolio/ireland/development_investment_portfolio/dublin_city_centre_retail/the_treasury_building/
Smart money is leaving or has left RE in China…..gosh hope Treasury China is ok, has lots and lots of exposure to Shanghai!
“For years analysts have warned of a looming real estate bubble in China, but the predicted downturn, the bursting of that bubble, never occurred — that is, until now. In a telling scene two months ago, Shanghai property developers started slashing prices on their latest luxury condos by up to one-third. Crowds of owners who had recently bought apartments at full price converged on sales offices throughout the city, demanding refunds. Some angry investors went on a rampage, breaking windows and smashing showrooms.”
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/136963/patrick-chovanec/chinas-real-estate-bubble-may-have-just-popped
@NWL update on the buck and a quarter Anglo bond,this is from senior bond trader in NY,its getting paid in full on time.Made some enquiries will update if any ‘news’.
“…….. It was trading for small size in Germany at 97.25. Those looked like odd lots as only a few million seemed to trade. I will check when I get in tomorrow AM and see if anything more substantial is out there.”
@despero, In general NAMA takes a “sweep” of all rental income from their debtors. From this it allows payments of taxes that relate to the asset and, where appropriate, relevant management fees.
Wilton Shopping Centre was not developed by the O’Donovans. Despero, Treasury Holdings doesn’t own the Nama headquarters no matter how many times The Indo writes it. It’s owned by Johnny Ronan – obviously involved in Treasury – and Paddy McKillen. What people don’t seem to get for whatever reason is that Ronan has his own portfolio, much of it with no debt, that’s separate to Treasury.
@Neil, point taken on the Wilton shopping centre – not built by the O’Donovans but owned and expanded by them, from which the above sentence derives “The O’Donovans – Howard and Joe – are probably best known for the development of the Wilton shopping centre inCork”
“Irish investor Joe O’Donovan has put Wilton shopping centre in Cork up for sale for €285m (£192.2m) – more than double what he paid just over two years ago.” from 2006
http://www.propertyweek.com/news/wiltons-retail-double-dare/3078490.article
I’m not aware of any expansion of the centre by the O’Donovans. They went for planning but that was about it as far as I know. I may be wrong
WSTT is obviously correct as well in what he just wrote
@NC thanks did not have the REO asset list last night,the REO report stated that Ronan had some limited personal guaranties,assume NAMA must have expanded that and its now a blanket one.Based on reviewing the hopelessly insolvent REO,its not be a stretch to say that Ronan no longs ‘owns’ anything,of course assuming NAMA did its job and expanded Ronan’s guarantee.
The Irish taxpayer has been been funding REO so it must have been a no brainer to get Ronan’s expanded guarantee,an intern would ask for that,more credit more collateral.
Bloomberg yesterday had piece on China’s real estate collapse.
‘Price cuts will “steepen and spread” from major to smaller cities in China in the coming months as developers “strive to maintain a decent sell-through rate,” HSBC Securities Asia Ltd. analysts led by Derek Kwong said in a report today.’
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-04/china-home-prices-fell-for-fourth-month-in-december-on-curbs-soufun-says.html
Is seems the sheerest folly that abstract financial arguments can barricade the way to common sense. This building is an asset that has no real “market” value as a luxury commodity… But it could have (and thanks to the occupation is having) a substantial social value as a social resource.. Worthies who see everything in terms of its investment and financial value are often blinded by their dogma.. 100 K empty houses could house Local Authority housing lists and eliminate the need for billionaire subsidies paid to private landlords for often temporary or badly maintained accommodation… Buildings like these could be centres where young social entrepreneurs set up social projects, childcare facilities, organic food restaurants, craft and art co-operatives that allow them the privilege of innovation which is currently reserved for the rich and highly educated.. Have a look at the Exchange in temple bar, where the owner leased it to an enterprise coop for a small rent… have a look at the innumerable social economy centres in Brussels, Stockholm, London, Vaasa, etc. etc. In 2008 the Social Economy was shown by EU statistics to be the largest creator of new jobs.. manly in cultural industries. The modern financial dogmatists would curtail the possibility of hope and self-innovation to a whole generation of young social entrepreneurs with their dogma, as they would deprive thousands of families and single people of the change to enjoy investments in good quality housing that are now being paid by their cuts and our taxes.. can’t they see that this is achievable.. and this is really win/win? Make the properties, houses and buildings, available to groups that are able to offer a basis organization and business plan.. Give them support to repair, to manage and to maintain, and make these initiatives a reality..! We have the perfect opportunity to use these properties as a basis for redressing the cuts ad austerity visited on the vulnerable.. These buildings, empty and deteriorating day by day, are a small price to pay.. We need an Empty Buildings Action plan to put as many homes and buildings and possible into use through organised community enterprises, housing associations and co-ops.
Why would Ronan extend his guarantee to assets that don’t have debt attached? What Nama was doing was expanding the guarantee within a group of companies. I doubt if he did sign anything over to be honest – don’t forget a lot of Treasury’s debt was via foreign banks so probably very few if any personal guarantees on that, pgs were “an Irish solution to an Irish problem” as somebody described it a few years ago. Again some of Ronan’s assets are separate to Treasury, which certain parts of Irish media ignore and therefore misinform.
Incidentally, McKillen’s ownership of 50 percent of the building was transferred to another individual last year or year before – can’t remember to whom. Spokeswoman denied he has sold his stake.
Why would NAMA advance Irish Taxpayers monies to Ronan’s crumbling empire of dirt without it.
Mobile this morning,will review the REO report later,details regarding his guarantee are disclosed.To cite one example,BPS had a 50% Irish bank loan at acquisition,the loan was ratched up by 64,000,000.
I understand he is a charming,debonair chap,but an additional 64 million,on a purchase loan w/o additional collateral.None of Ronan’s assets are separate any more,REO is dependent upon the generosity of NAMA for its survival,he’s ALL IN.
You could be forgiven for thinking this quote is from Ronan,its actually from George Best full time alcoholic,famous philander and part time soccer player.
“I used to go missing a lot…Miss Canada, Miss United Kingdom, Miss World.”
As a media whore Ronan’s antics would be mildly amusing,if it were not for the fact that NAMA/Irish Taxpayer is owed the majority of the 1,000,000,000, yes 1 BILLION DEBT on Irish properties.To some, ‘a lot of treasury’s debt was via foreign banks’…. exactly what debt are we talking about,is there more?
REO prelim. results year ended 28 Feb 2011.
Regarding Note 13(i),below.’.various other guarantees from Mr. John Ronan’,this looks personal to me,if its not it sure as hell should be.
“(i) The bank loans on Irish properties are secured by floating charges over the Castle Market Holdings Limited
Group (CMH) and Havenview Investments Limited Group, fixed charges over the Irish investment properties and
investment properties under development amounting to £1,094 million, a guarantee and indemnity from the
Company and various other guarantees from Mr John Ronan, Treasury Holdings and certain subsidiaries. The
majority of the loans have now been transferred from the Irish guaranteed banks to the National Asset
Management Agency (NAMA). ”
REO is insolvent dependent upon the goodwill, naivety and generous nature of the Irish Taxpayer and NAMA.
Chairman’s Statement.
The key assumptions made in preparing the Group’s cashflow for the period to 22 June 2012
include:
• The completion of binding facility agreements w ith NAMA based on signed MOU in the
near future to address:
(a) interest payments
(b) renew al by NAMA of bank facilities in the amount of £829 million
(c) the provision by NAMA of working capital facilities
(d) the provision by NAMA of financial support to cover certain operating cash
requirements ”
These disastrous atrociousness results from REO reveal that Ronan, has in fact contrary to the above ‘doubts’ provided guarantees.The least NAMA must have gotten was a ‘blanket’, fully recourse personal guarantee from Ronan,covering all his assets,in return for ongoing funding of this fiasco.
Just as interesting where is Barrett in this dogs breakfast of a company.
Banks stalling development of city sites, claims manager
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfkfcwmhmhkf/rss2/#ixzz1ifhMuRXV
It is highly significant that Greg Coughlan of Howard Holdings is a fugitive from the law.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfojgbgbojid/rss2/
occupy versus shotgun toting developer…
developer wins hands down. see below
As California goes so goes the world.
I’m not picking on NAMA protesters who deserve support.
But Occupy is what exactly?, for who?
Why confuse Occupy with something as concrete as NAMA (pun of the year and its only January)
http://blog.sfgate.com/nov05election/2012/01/12/shotgun-toting-oakland-developer-appointed-to-lotto-board/
btw, don’t usually trust the sfgate
p.s. Irish developers please don’t try this